Any recommendations or ideas?
Gas checks are expensive for what they are and, hopefully, an unnecessary expense.
200 grain bullet.
Winchester 1886 rifle from 1906, 26” round barrel.
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Willy Snyder
PO Box 2732
Pocatello, ID 83206
Any recommendations or ideas?
Gas checks are expensive for what they are and, hopefully, an unnecessary expense.
200 grain bullet.
Winchester 1886 rifle from 1906, 26” round barrel.
The .33 Win would pprobably work ok without a gas check if you kept velocity below 1700 fps or so. If you want to exploit the capabilities of the cartridge, get the gas checks or a gas check maker. Is your present mould cut for gas checks? If so and it gives problems wiithout gas checks, try paper patching.
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.
How would you go about paper patching?
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/for...Paper-Patching
There is a separate section of this forum for paper patching discussions. Unless your bullets are undersize you would need a different mold because of the paper increasing the diameter. I have not done it, only read about. Would like to try it with my 38-55.
Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.
What about just keeping under 1700 fps and avoiding gas checks or paper patching? Any loads come to mind?
And where to look for loading data? Ken Waters doesn’t even have an article about this round.
My copy of the Ideal Hand Book, 2nd printing, 1949 lists for bullet 338237 @195 gr. the following: 5gr Unique = est 1100 fps; 12 gr 4759 = 1161; 17 gr 4759 = 1597.Originally Posted by mrcvs
In MY OPINION, Paper patching the same bullet and charging it with 42 gr of 4320 or 44 grains of 4064 will give you 2000-2250 fps and remain under max load for a 200 grain jacketed bullet.
Using your existing bullet but sized 7 to 8 thousandths under groove diameter and wrapped with 2 wraps of .002 thick tracing paper will give you good results and no leading.
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.
The Hornady 3rd edition has data for the 200gr JACKETED bullet.
Starting loads for 1700 FPS are:
H-4198 28gr
IMR 3031 33.3grs
IMR 4064 35.1grs
H4895 35.1 grs
Gas checks are not all that much money and make a world of difference for the velocity range you will be shooting this cartridge.
I have a bunch. Contact me by PM and I can send you some to try.
Mike Venturino may have something on the 33 Win. You might check. I loaned him a bunch of molds and dies to write about the 33 Win and the 348 Win. about 15 years ago. I never followed up to see what he wrote.
Chill Wills
In the whole scheme of things gas checks aren’t much.
I had such trouble finding a bullet mold that the fact it was made for a bullet with gas checks has to be a non issue. But another issue is I’ve never used them before. What holds them in place? Friction?
I always used the 200 grain jacketed bullets but now I’m out. I don’t think they have been manufactured for over 20 years.
Yes, you press them on with the Lube-sizer or press them on by pushing the cast bullet with check in place through a "push through sizer die" They (the Hornady type) crimp on.
The request for info is not very detailed with no discussions of desired velocities and no preferred powders. I ran some Quickload stuff, but stayed well below max just given that there does not seem to be a desire for going up near max.
First is a typical standard approach of looking for max velocity given a specific pressure. I doubt that you will go up to the values shown below, but if you are working up loads, you should be safe up to the value shown.
Next is a list of loads with powders that produce mid range pressures at a "middle" velocity. Just for the record I selected 2000 fps given that I have pushed powder coated 35 cal 180s and 200s with no gas checks to this speed with good results.Code:Cartridge : .33 Win. Bullet : .336, 205, 340-205-FN PB Q5 Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.719 inch = 69.06 mm Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ! Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Accurate 4350 104.0 53.0 3.43 2476 93.7 36000 6744 1.463 Alliant Reloder-17 *T 97.4 52.0 3.37 2473 95.2 36000 6899 1.454 Vihtavuori N550 *C*T 99.2 51.7 3.35 2452 93.1 36000 6631 1.465 IMR 3031 91.4 43.6 2.82 2442 99.9 36000 5935 1.467 Accurate 4064 95.5 47.6 3.08 2441 99.3 36000 6198 1.513 Alliant Reloder TS 15.5 *C *T 96.8 47.2 3.06 2440 97.8 36000 6223 1.469 Accurate 2495 90.2 44.9 2.91 2436 100.0 36000 5985 1.520 Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 101.2 50.2 3.25 2436 92.8 36000 6611 1.460 Hodgdon BL-C2 87.0 48.4 3.14 2432 96.8 36000 6299 1.476 Ramshot Hunter 102.0 53.7 3.48 2427 90.0 36000 6580 1.464 Ramshot Big Game 91.4 49.6 3.22 2427 94.8 36000 6311 1.465 IMR 4895 90.5 46.1 2.99 2427 95.4 36000 6300 1.479 Hodgdon H414 96.5 52.0 3.37 2426 89.0 36000 6506 1.465 Winchester 760 96.5 52.0 3.37 2426 89.0 36000 6506 1.465 Winchester 748 84.1 46.1 2.99 2426 97.7 36000 6106 1.468
And last are some 1700 fps loads using the same mid range pressure criteria.Code:Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Accurate No.7 42.6 23.4 1.52 2000 100.0 34982 3094 1.594 Shooters World Major Pistol 42.6 23.4 1.52 2000 100.0 34982 3094 1.594 Norma R123 48.4 24.7 1.60 2000 100.0 34442 3186 1.649 Shooters World Heavy Pistol 45.4 24.8 1.61 2000 100.0 32118 3221 1.631 Accurate No.9 45.9 24.8 1.61 2000 100.0 32118 3221 1.631 Ramshot Enforcer 49.0 25.5 1.65 2000 100.0 29906 3353 1.685 Alliant 2400 49.0 23.7 1.54 2000 100.0 29743 3349 1.676 IMR 4227 60.0 28.0 1.81 2000 99.9 25511 3904 1.753 Hodgdon H4227 60.2 28.1 1.82 2000 100.0 24857 3926 1.770 Hodgdon H4198 64.6 30.9 2.00 2000 95.5 24752 4207 1.772 Accurate 1680 58.2 30.9 2.01 2000 96.6 24009 4294 1.801 IMR 4198 65.7 30.0 1.95 2000 98.9 23370 4190 1.798
Code:Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hodgdon Universal 47.7 15.6 1.01 1700 100.0 35116 2084 1.720 Vihtavuori N340 48.0 16.2 1.05 1700 100.0 33293 2074 1.737 Accurate No.2 45.6 15.4 1.00 1700 100.0 32633 2086 1.745 Alliant UNIQUE 46.1 15.2 0.98 1700 100.0 31398 2139 1.767 Ramshot Silhouette 38.0 16.8 1.09 1700 100.0 31069 2135 1.765 Vihtavuori N350 45.4 16.9 1.09 1700 100.0 29168 2157 1.797 Ramshot True Blue 33.6 17.4 1.13 1700 100.0 29045 2156 1.795 Hodgdon Longshot 33.8 17.3 1.12 1700 100.0 28863 2161 1.799 Vihtavuori 3N37 43.1 16.9 1.10 1700 100.0 28678 2177 1.807 Hodgdon HS-6 34.7 17.5 1.13 1700 100.0 27972 2180 1.813 Alliant POWER PISTOL 36.7 14.8 0.96 1700 100.0 23584 2366 1.900 Vihtavuori N105 *C 43.9 17.5 1.13 1700 100.0 22938 2334 1.953 Vihtavuori 3N38 42.5 17.7 1.15 1700 100.0 22872 2336 1.929 Accurate No.7 32.4 17.8 1.15 1700 100.0 20816 2476 1.996 Alliant 2400 38.1 18.4 1.19 1700 100.0 18118 2766 2.099 IMR 4227 48.7 22.7 1.47 1700 96.4 16226 3232 2.160 Hodgdon H4198 53.4 25.6 1.66 1700 88.6 16161 3367 2.164 Hodgdon H4227 48.9 22.8 1.48 1700 97.0 15686 3278 2.185
Last edited by P Flados; 08-02-2024 at 11:19 PM.
There is currently an Ad on the Swapping & Selling portion of this site with 3 boxes of Hornady 200 grain Flat Points for the 33 Winchester. As odd as that cartridge is, you might want to look at it.
P Flados
Do you know the maximum safe pressure for the 33Win in a 1886 Winchester?
The round is not in my SAAMI Spec. Quickload says 44,236 psi based on CIP.
Wiki has no pressure value. Wiki does say a 200 gr can be pushed to 2,420 fps which is pretty consistent with my Quickload table even though I held pressure well below what Quickload said was max.
The 33 Win was only produced in a few guns. The 1886 Win is generally considered stronger than the Marlin Model 1895 which was also sold in 33 Win.
The round has the same based diameter as the 45-70.
At https://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html, the 1886 in 45-70 is said to be good to 50,000 psi. Most other places I looked at did not recommend pushing the 45-70 much over 40,000 psi in a 1886.
I could find no 33 Win load data with pressure test results for comparison.
So, you can take desired criteria and type that in a computer and come up with a desired load? I thought that was all trial and error.
As I desire about 1700 fps and have IMR4227, I guess I’ll load using 22.7 grains IMR 4227 and see how that groups.
Thank you!
P Flados, I don't have the answer either. Somewhere in my dim memory I think I read the older Win 1886 were safe to 26,500 psi. This could be very wrong. My 33Win. has a marked "Proof Steel" barrel but the 1886 action SN is early.
In Hornady's 3rd addition, max loadings with any powder shown went 2,000 to 2,200 fps. This is with the only bullet listed, the jacketed 200 grain. Only one powder made it to 2,200, so, your very high muzzle velocities caught my eye.
Thanks for the work you did providing the info.
As they used to say on an 1980's cop show, "Let's be careful out there".
Last edited by Chill Wills; 08-03-2024 at 02:49 PM.
For what it's worth, there are a fair number of 33 Winchester loads available in LoadData.com - one of the sponsors of this site.
There are 6 or 7 references to the LoadData site and they all basically mimic the data and velocity listed in the Hornady loading book except for the one reference to the which shows the (lead) LBT 200 grain FN at 1900 + FPS.
It is worth a check....
Absolutely.
And anyone wanting to push a lever gun to max pressures using a tool like Quickload, really needs to know the gun's limitations, use exact measured inputs and if at all possible use a chrono during load development.
Ok, I finally found something that looks to be a more solid basis for a reasonable limit.
The 33 Win was never a black powder cartridge. The ammo was always made assuming "high pressure" loads. Any good condition 33 Win brass should be considered as "better than or equal to" any 45-70 brass. If I were converting 45-70 brass to 33 Win for use in high pressure loads, I might want to stick with Starline or with brass from ammo that was sold as for Tier 2 guns.
Since the important dimensions of these rounds are the same, a Marlin 1895 or Win 1886 originally made in 33 Win that is in good shape should be Ok at a pressure that is published for a 45-70 "Lever gun".
Hodgdon on-line load data includes a "Lever gun" H4198 load for a Barnes 250 with:
56.5C 2,487 38,700 PSI
Note this same source has even higher values, but the results are in CUP.
I also found a Lever Gun section in a 2013 Western Powder load guide that has loads as high as 39,100 psi. The header for this section says "Approx. 40,000 psi".
For now, I would just stick with 39,000 psi conservatively or possibly 40,000 psi if you want to go that far.
Last edited by P Flados; 08-03-2024 at 06:02 PM.
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