38 short colt vs. 38 s&w

[doc watson]

I recently got into a discussion on a page on facebook, about the bullet diameters of the above listed cartridges. Some one had posted a picture of an ammo box, with the label 38 spl short. I stated they were just calling the 38 short colt a different name. This gentleman then stated that the 38 short colt used a larger diameter bullet then the 38 spl. He quoted wikepedia entry for his evidence. I stated that they had confused the 38 s&w diameter which is larger with the short colt. I base this on the fact my first good revolver was a Colt Police Positve for the 38 short colt. Then yesterday I loaded up 45 of the short colts on 38 special dies, then to further confuse the issue, I checked and a 38 s&w easily dropped into the chamber of my Smith and Wesson model 642. So, what is the deal, have these dimensions changed?

[Outpost75]

Black powder .38 Short and Long Colts used a heeled bullet with enlarged forepart to fit cylinders having no shoulder, being bored straight through. Pre-1900 revolvers had groove diameters as large as .375". Later smokeless rounds use an inside-lubricated, hollow-based bullet of same diameter as used in the .38 Special.

Modern .38 S&W factory loads use a cup-based .358 bullet, although cylinder throats may vary from .360-.364". Barrel groove diameters also vary widely. Pre-WW2 Colts are .354-.355" , Victory S&Ws .358-.360, postwar S&Ws .357-.358" and British wartime Webley & Scott, Albions and Enfields usually .362+.

Typical .38 S&W ammo has brass of larger body diameter and will not chamber in .38 Specials. The notable exception is modern R-P headstamped .38 S&W which is of smaller body diameter and will chamber in some, (but not all) .38 Special revolvers, if chambers run "large," as wartime guns often did. My Vietnam era S&W Model 10, Model 60 and Model 28 will all chamber and shoot OK with R-P headstamped .38 S&W ammo, but not Rem-UMC, WRA, W-W, CIL-Dominion, Federal, Kynoch or CIS.

Accurate has a correct heeled bullet mold for the .38 Long Colt which shoots well in the 1892 Army or in .36 cap & ball conversion revolvers having large barrel groove diameters

Use 3 grains of Bullseye to approximate factory Long Colt velocity and 2.2 grains for the Short Colt.

[doc watson]

thanks for the info, that is what i was looking for. Have you ever fired the 38 s&w in your 38 specials?

[challenger_i]

Years back, when I was young and foolish, I had a Hawes 1873-style revolver in 357 MagMoose. It ate 38 S&W like popcorn. My Smith 686, 642 and a Ruger Black Hawk will not chamber them. Which is a shame, as since I regretfully parted with my Webley, I have a large stock of 38 S&W that I can't use.

I haven't ran into the RP 38 S&W that is of smaller diameter: all my stash dates back 20 years ago. All of it has a base diameter of .386".

[Outpost75]

thanks for the info, that is what i was looking for. Have you ever fired the 38 s&w in your 38 specials?

Yes.

Velocity and accuracy are normal if cartridges chamber easily without force.

Expect about 700 fps from a 4-inch gun.

[gwpercle]

thanks for the info, that is what i was looking for. Have you ever fired the 38 s&w in your 38 specials?

I have both , a 38 S&W revolver and three 38 special revolvers and one 357 magnum revolver .
Winchester 38 S&W factory ammo will enter the chambers but will stop short and not seat in the 38 special chambers ... I don't think I would want to drive the fatter 38 S&W cases into the chamber with a rubber mallet ... the cases are all just too large in the lower area , above the rim . Same thing with the 357 Magnum ...no go !

Winchester 38 S&W ammo will not easily chamber in a 38 special revolver ...
I didn't have any R-P ammo to test .
Gary

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I have two 38 S&W revolvers. They fire a .361 inside diameter bullet. These will not fit in a 38 Special revolver.

What is common to see now is 38 Short Colt, or just 38 Colt as it was called back then, loaded with inside diameter bullets of .357 in 38 Special revolvers for low recoil cowboy loads. As was stated above 38 Colt was a cartridge developed for 36 caliber percussion revolvers that had .375 barrels. Percussion conical bullets were healed to load into the chambers. This carried over into paper cartridges and later metallic 38 Colt cartridges.

It was the 38 Colt brass that was later elongated to make the 38 special. Probably because the US military was already using the Colt family of cartridges.

[Iron369]

I have a 38s&w that I’ve never fired. It was inherited and I really don’t like revolvers. It’s nice though.for its age. I think it’s from the 20’s (1920’s this is) according to the colt’s serial number lookup.

[schutzen-jager]

I have two 38 S&W revolvers. They fire a .361 inside diameter bullet. These will not fit in a 38 Special revolver.

What is common to see now is 38 Short Colt, or just 38 Colt as it was called back then, loaded with inside diameter bullets of .357 in 38 Special revolvers for low recoil cowboy loads. As was stated above 38 Colt was a cartridge developed for 36 caliber percussion revolvers that had .375 barrels. Percussion conical bullets were healed to load into the chambers. This carried over into paper cartridges and later metallic 38 Colt cartridges.

It was the 38 Colt brass that was later elongated to make the 38 special. Probably because the US military was already using the Colt family of cartridges.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...the-38-S-amp-W

[bedbugbilly]

The original 38 Colt short was designed for 1851/1861 Colt Navy revolvers that were converted to cartridge from cap and ball. Navy caliber was .36 - the barrels were bored .360 and THEN rifled with a groove diameter of .375. They used a .375 "heeled" outside lubed bullet. (Think .22 Short, Long, Long Rifle cartridge which is also an outside lube bullet). Cylinders on the Colt Navy conversions were straight bored. The same as today for First, Howell and other conversion cylinders for '51 / '61 Colt Navy "clones".

The 38 S & W cartridge was designed for a .360 diameter bullet and the casing COAL ^ and I believe the OD is different than a 38 Colt short (or 38 spl. short - which was nothing more than a marketing ploy.

If you have a good loading manual that has the various cartridges being discussed, take a look at the casing dimensions.

I load 38 Colt short / long with a number of .358 Boolits designs and use them in my 38/357 revolvers with food accuracy - just clean your cylinder well after shooting if you plan to use 38 spl. / 357 cartridges.

I also load 38 short /long with .375 heeled boolits for use in my '51 Colt Navies and '58 Remington Navies with conversion cylinders. The heeled bullet requires a special crimp on the case mouth for the heel. I use the collet crimp die and special steel holder that Old West Molds sells and they work slick.

I have never shot a revolver chambered in 38 S & W - I have handled some over the years and I have a few cartridges in my collection. Definitely different than 38 Colt Short when placed side by side. Ideal (and others) made molds in .360 fo the 38 S & W and I have owned probably a half dozen of them over the past 60 + years - I just cast in them and tied to .358 to use in 38 Colt short / long and 38 spl.

[schutzen-jager]

found this thread from over a year ago -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...the-38-S-amp-W

[schutzen-jager]

found this in old Guns magazine - Jeff Johns findings coincide with mine every .38 S&W barrel i slugged [ 3 pistols + 3 nos victory barrels] all had .357 + .358 diameters + the .38 Colt Army special nos barrels slugged out at .374 to .377 -

[schutzen-jager]

just read an article in Aug. 2015 guns Magazine - there are actually 3 different .38 Colt cartridges - the .38 Colt short + long which use hollow based bullets in a larger bore + head dimensions like .38 special cases - + the .38 colt New Police which has case dimensions the same as the .38S&W + utilizes the smaller diameter bore -