NRL22 competion and Mildot scope usage

[chutestrate]

I went to a NRL22 competition, and came away thinking it's a lot of fun, but I know next to nothing about how to set up and use a mildot scope. Didn't find the competitors all that helpful when I talked to them. They explained things way ahead of where my experience is so I walked away scratching my head. I've watched a bunch of youtube, and found it to be a bit of the same. Could someone recommend a possible source of material that would take me from knowing nothing to a working knowledge of what I'm supposed to be doing?

[Barry54]

MILs are a way to measure. It’s easier in the metric system.

One MIL is 1/1000 so it’s one meter of height at 1000 meters.
50 centimeters at 500 meters
Ten centimeters at 100 meters
One centimeter at ten meters
3.6 inches at 100 yards (36 inches is a yard)
7.2 inches at 200 yards
14.4 inches at 400 yards

It’s an angle. So as distance increases, the size that angle measures increases.

Does that help you any?

[Bwana John]

MILs are a way to measure. It’s easier in the metric system.
It’s an angle. So as distance increases, the size that angle measures increases.

Does that help you any?

The angle stays the same no matter how close or far you are from the vertex.

The greater the distance from the vertex of the angle, the greater the distance is that is subtended by that angle.

[popper]

It's like a ruler below the crosshairs of the scope (same for windage). Sight you rifle scope for 50yds(or whatever you choose), ruler shows impact point (at distance farther than your boresight). Target shooters usually just dial the crosshairs to point of impact, hunters use the 'dots'. For 22LR shooters, wind is biggest problem so use the 'dots' for wind correction. You use the 'correction' 'dot' as aim point.

[chutestrate]

Yes you're confirming what I'm beginning to pick up. Thank you. My goal is to figure out understand enough so that I can put a dope chart together, but my head is not wrapping around the angle, holdover, etc.

[Barry54]

Here’s 22 thunderbolt with a 50 yard zero. One chart is the drop in inches and the other chart is the drop in mils.

[chutestrate]

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the angles stay the same. In my head i see the angles getting higher with longer distance.

[popper]

Site in the scope at a distance 50 or whatever. Shoot at 100 or so, record AMMO and drop (ruler marking on the scope) scope cross hairs and point of impact. Repeat for longer ranges. Ballistics chart for 22LR don't work. So when shooting 100, use ruler marking instead of cross hairs. Find the ammo that works best in your rifle, then buy it by the case. As I stated earlier, IMHO most will shoot some 'sighters' and adjust the scope at the competition.

[Barry54]

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the angles stay the same. In my head i see the angles getting higher with longer distance.

Yes. The distance it measures increases as the range gets greater.

[chutestrate]

This is going to be a hard one to understand I think. I might have to find some kind of class on long distance shooting. Not finding a good starting point to get myself started.

[Barry54]

Yeah. I’m against a wall trying to help you out further while not sitting beside you at the shooting bench. It’s a lot to try to explain to someone remotely.

The other approach is to buy a scope with a Mil-dot or moa reticle. Mount it and go shoot with it and take notes which dot coincides with your group at each distance you will be shooting. If you get a common second focal plane scope, the reticle remains the same size and the target size changes with magnification. This causes the measuring marks on the reticle to only be accurate at one given magnification power setting. You can use this to your advantage. For example if your 200 yard group doesn’t line up perfectly with one of the dots at nine power magnification you might be able to turn the magnification back to eight power and the group coincides perfectly.

With a first focal plane scope the reticle AND target image change size together. Therefore regardless of what magnification setting you use, the hold off marks will be accurate.

Moa marks are a smaller graduation than MILs so you will probably want a mil-dot scope with fractions of MILs to have the same amount of hold off marks as a scope with an moa reticle.

Research is cheap! Look at images of the reticles of each style to see what I’m talking about.

[WRideout]

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the angles stay the same. In my head i see the angles getting higher with longer distance.

In the Field Artillery world, there are 6400 mils in a circle, as opposed to 360 degrees. It's just a finer measurement of angles.

Wayne

[chutestrate]

Yeah, I think I need someone to sit with me I think and say hey dummy, not that way...this way. The explanations are very much appreciated, but I'm struggling with the practical application. I do have a ffp arken scope, and I spent a couple of hours at the range last weekend playing around with information i thought I understood from youtube. At least I was shooting. Didn't get anywhere, but i was shooting.

[Barry54]

Can you tell us exactly which scope it is and what ammo you are practicing with? I could attempt to make a drop chart for your ammunition and reticle.

What distance do you want to zero at? And what target distances do you want drop figures for?

[chutestrate]

Arken lh 6-24x50 mrad reticle. I appreciate the offer, but I'm also trying to figure out how to get a ballistic app to work. whatever i put in doesn't seem to work properly...or i don't know how to correctly use the app. comes back to user error.

[Bwana John]

In the Field Artillery world, there are 6400 mils in a circle, as opposed to 360 degrees. It's just a finer measurement of angles.

Wayne

The Russian use 2 x pi x 1000 or 6283 milradians in a circle
We use 6400 milradians because it is easier to use with base 2


Radians are easier to use because the radius of the circle (distance to target) is involved in the algorithm. This is really only applicable when you know the exact size of the target, and you know what that target subtends, but you do not know how far away the target is.

Otherwise most people just use mils as graduations of a circle, they never apply the easier math that is possible using milradians.

Just make sure if your scopes reticle is graduated in mils, the turret adjustments are also in mils ( or both are in MOA) other wise it makes very little difference which system you use

[Bwana John]

As I stated earlier, IMHO most will shoot some 'sighters' and adjust the scope at the competition.

The NRL22 competitions I shot did not allow sighters, you were expected to have all zero and dope already figured out before the shoot began.

[country gent]

One thing to do that may help you understand the relationship.

When you go to the range set up 2 targets, 1 at 25 or 50 then another at 100 yds. Now shoot a group using the 2nd dot for a aiming point at the close target then do the same using the second dot at 100. now measure the difference from center of x to center of the groups. This is the "angle" showing. Even though your using the second dot the groups wont be the same at the closer target and the longer one the longer will be double or triple depending on the range.

Moa stands for minute of angle. 1 moa is 1.062 at 100 yds 2.125 at 200 3.375 at 300. Its not a straight line measurement but a 1 min of one degree angle.
A circle is 360 degrees each degree is then broken down into 60 mins and each min is broken down to 60 secs

Mil dots are a means of using this while on the sights instead of cranking knobs.

Shoot some groups and you will see the effects.

[Bwana John]

Mil dots are a means of using this while on the sights instead of cranking knobs.

Dots or graduations of the reticle can be in MOA or Milradians… which ever you are more comfortable in… 1MOA=1”@100yds is “almost” base 10.

Milradians are most useful if you can think in meters, centimeters, millimeters, ect

For some reason many scope manufacturers used Mildots on the reticle and MoA for the scope turrets, which make things more complicated.

Realize that a first focal plane scope allows you to use the mil or moa reticle on all magnifications
On a second focal plane scope the graduations are only appropriate at one magnification.

Because of time constraints of NRL22 after zeroing the rifle using the turrets, you almost have to use the reticle to change the poa/poi, you just do not have enough time to dial the turrets for differences in distances or windage

[popper]

Forget Mildot or anything. Sight in @ 100 then shoot longer - record the 'ticks' below crosshairs for the hole. Method is - reticle on aim point, shoot. Reticle on aim point, look at the 'tick'. Put the 'tick' on point of aim and shoot. Should be close to the first hole. If the wind is toward you, drop will be more. Away, drop is less. To get your 'compensation' - crosshair on POA, dial crosshair inch away. Record clicks. Numbers on the scope are not always right. You are shooting fixed distance in competition. Wind is the hard part.