12ga smoothbore round ball accuracy?

[Barry54]

Nice work!

What do you think the velocity is?

[faustus]

Nice work!

What do you think the velocity is?

Barry, I don’t know … I still need to chrono the load.

But, for the 54cal ball load the payload is 264 grains or around 5/8 oz …. and I used 17.1 grains of Clays.

The closest reference load I have is a 7/8oz load with 18.4 grains of powder …. and which gives a velocity of 1250 FPS.

So, I would assume that the velocity is somewhere around 1250 FPS ….. maybe a bit higher.

-------------------------------------------
Reference Load
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Cheddite Hull
Cheddite Primer 209
Clays Powder – 18.4 grains
GU 1225 Wad
Fold Crimp
#8 shot (383 grains, 7/8 oz)
PSI 7300
FPS 1250
-------------------------------------------

With only 5/8 oz as payload it is a very pleasant load to shoot. Not much recoil …..

And pressure should be very very low …. and at the bottom spectrum of what a 12ga can do. I am still not quite sure if that load will go boom this winter in freezing temps. I guess I will see …. something to test this winter .....

[Plinkmeister]

faustus, what type of magazine extensions are you using? Thanks

[Barry54]

I calculate the energy at 915 ft/lbs. I bet it is wonderful out of a 12 gauge!

Did you reduce the powder charge from your reference load to increase accuracy, or as a safety precaution?

How cold is a normal winter day up there?

I wonder if it would kill your accuracy to switch to those hot muzzleloader 209s for winter use?

[725]

I like the methodical nature of your load development. What choke did you end up using in this last series? I just have a feeling that any choke disrupts the passage of the ball / wad unit. Do you have access to a cylinder bore shotgun to use? Would love to see if there are any differences. 725

[faustus]

faustus, what type of magazine extensions are you using? Thanks

It is an S&J +2 extension that was polished and blued to match the guns finish ...

[faustus]

I like the methodical nature of your load development. What choke did you end up using in this last series? I just have a feeling that any choke disrupts the passage of the ball / wad unit. Do you have access to a cylinder bore shotgun to use? Would love to see if there are any differences. 725

The 54cal ball only worked in a .665 Turkey choke.
The 58cal ball only worked in a .680 Turkey choke.

One of my findings was that the ball/wad/choke combination needs to fit exactly.
One choke size up or down and the pattern is all over ….

I have tried the 54cal load in a .700 choke .... and some rounds did not even hit paper. The pattern was all over the place. With a Cylinder choke the result would even be worse ....

[W.R.Buchanan]

Faustus: Why are you shooting smaller round balls? I thought you were shooting these thru a 20 ga?

Typically balls from .662 and up work pretty well and are not at all hard to get to perform. Generally shooting Round Balls of .662-.690 loaded into a regular Skeet or Trap Load with a 1/4" Felt Wad under the ball, and shot thru an IC choke tube will produce good results out to 50 yards.

Randy

[faustus]

Faustus: Why are you shooting smaller round balls? I thought you were shooting these thru a 20 ga?

Typically balls from .662 and up work pretty well and are not at all hard to get to perform. Generally shooting Round Balls of .662-.690 loaded into a regular Skeet or Trap Load with a 1/4" Felt Wad under the ball, and shot thru an IC choke tube will produce good results out to 50 yards.

Randy

Randy, I wanted something with a bit less recoil and that I can shoot safely through my 12ga hunting gun with a turkey choke.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Faustus: My Round Ball Loads are the same as my normal AA 1 1/8 oz. Trap Loads with 20 gr of Green Dot and a 1 oz. .662 round Ball WAA12 clone and a 1/4" thick felt wad under the ball which keeps it centered in the wad during launch.. I just fired 101 of them last Sunday at a Trap Tournament at my Range. Not a mark on my 74 year old shoulder and I was only wearing a Tee Shirt over it.

I think if you tried these you'd be happy with the recoil, and definitely the accuracy.

Randy

[Barry54]

I’m impressed with the 50 meter accuracy from post #40 and I’m thrilled to see it accomplished with Turkey chokes. It will be comforting to know your roundball loads performance if needed while Turkey hunting.

I don’t know anyone that desires to Turkey hunt with an improved cylinder choke.

[faustus]

One of the other reasons I went with the FS12 gas seal and not a conventional wad is that I can replace the FS12 gas seal and make a buck & ball load.

I played with buck & ball loads in the past … but one problem I ran into was the difficulty to combine a decent buckshot pattern, and at the same time an accurate slug/ball in the same load. Normally it either or …. but not both combined in one load.

So, that is what I am working on now ….. a buck & ball load with a decent buckshot pattern out of a tight choke … and a ball that shoots accurately out of those chokes ... all tuned to my hunting gun.

For those who are interested, here is the old thread about my past buck & ball experiments.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...all-Once-again

And this is one new variation with a 58cal ball that I am going to test soon out of the .680 choke:

8 #1 buckshot pellets and one 58cal ball with the trimmed LBC30 wad ...

[lawdog941]

Faustus, I'm shooting in the wind here, have you tried adding buffer to the buckshot? The initial force of the powder ignition could be deforming your buck and causing it to fly off target after the wads are cleared. Just my .02

[faustus]

Faustus, I'm shooting in the wind here, have you tried adding buffer to the buckshot? The initial force of the powder ignition could be deforming your buck and causing it to fly off target after the wads are cleared. Just my .02

Thanks lawdog941, that picture was the first "demo" round and to determine stack height. The "real" ones will all be loaded with buffer .... for the buckshot and for the ball.

[centershot]

I calculate the energy at 915 ft/lbs. I bet it is wonderful out of a 12 gauge!

Did you reduce the powder charge from your reference load to increase accuracy, or as a safety precaution?

How cold is a normal winter day up there?

I wonder if it would kill your accuracy to switch to those hot muzzleloader 209s for winter use?

IIRC, the muzzle loader 209's are a "softer" primer than the shotshell 209's. They wanted a primer that wouldn't build a "crud ring" in the barrel. Funny thing is, if I wipe the bore, just one time down and back up with a spit patch between shots, I don't get a crud ring, go figure.....

[725]

I seem to remember the sales pitch that the ML 209's were of a lesser pressure so as not to start the projectile push down the barrel before full ignition could occur. A hot primer, or so the pitch went, pushed the load and powder out into the barrel before complete ignition, leaving unburnt powder to ignite in the barrel more so than usual. I've used them both and can't tell the difference.

[Sandro_ventania]

Faustus: Why are you shooting smaller round balls? I thought you were shooting these thru a 20 ga?

Typically balls from .662 and up work pretty well and are not at all hard to get to perform. Generally shooting Round Balls of .662-.690 loaded into a regular Skeet or Trap Load with a 1/4" Felt Wad under the ball, and shot thru an IC choke tube will produce good results out to 50 yards.

Randy

Which of these 3 slugs in the photo has the greatest accuracy?

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Longbow's theory on "trombone effect" makes sense.

[longbow]

I can't claim credit for that, just repeating the words from DarylS on Nitro Express forum.

The thought is that the ball is never perfect, there is a sprue and there will be some inconsistencies to the surface so uneven drag starts the ball spinning and once spinning the spin increases causing the random veering off course.

In my experience round balls shoot quite well out to 50 to 60 yards then groups seem to open up exponentially with distance. That is what Daryl refers to as the trombone trajectory... pretty tight groups out to 50 yards or so then the spin starts to take over and groups can (don't always) open up fairly quickly with extra distance so increasing curve. I have shot 4" groups at 100 yards with 0.735" RB's but I wouldn't say I can do that all the time because mostly groups were more like 8" to 12" and with flyers on top of that at 100 yards.

There may be something else at play there but the increasing spin from drag makes sense.

Something else to think about is that for many slug loads that start out supersonic, they go transonic at around 50 or 60 yards so there is a shift of the shockwave and lots of turbulence then. That may upset things too.

Just a couple more thoughts.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

The thought is that the ball is never perfect, there is a sprue and there will be some inconsistencies to the surface so uneven drag starts the ball spinning and once spinning the spin increases causing the random veering off course.

I read some declassified papers a while ago, where the US military in the sixties had copied various Soviet Union missile designs, based on pictures from Soviet military parades on The Red Square.
The designs were then tested in wind tunnels and were found to be quite effective, though sometimes odd looking. A test was also made on the design of the Vostok landing module - which is basically a truncated sphere - and it proved to be remarkable steady due to the center of mass being moved forward.

A truncated full bore lead ball would weigh about one ounce - depending on how much "trunc" it has - and should remain stable in flight if fired from a cylinder barrel.
The ball could be made a tad overbore to ensure a tight fit throughout the journey down the barrel (it wouldn't take much force for the forcing cone to swage it to size)
The flat base would probably work great on top of a felt wad, sandwiched between two x12x seals.

I promised myself I would stop with the slug-mania and concentrate on more important stuff, but I must admit - it could be interesting...