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Thread: Chamber length questions on my old Damascus 10 gauge

  1. #21
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I apparently I didn't zero my calipers before I measured the loaded RST factory ammo the other day. It measured 2.405” today after zeroing my digital calipers. I also re measured my chambers and they still are both reading the same as yesterday at 2.775”. So i would say I'm good to go with 2 7/8" factory RST ammo if I want to shoot it up. Well that's good becuase when I loaded up my proven load the other day and used a plastic shot cup instead of a 1/2" nitro card I had just enough hull length left over after shortening them to get a roll crimp. Now I won't have to cut down the current RST hulls that I know they are short enough to clear the forcing cones without any trimming or I'll have to trim off .025" of hull material I'm guessing.





    rolled paper or cardboard will not give a reliable accurate reading like a machined chamber gauge - there is no pronounced step were the chamber ends + forcing cone begins -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I have steps in mine! I’ll have to take a photo when I’m back over to the house and post it. It’s a forcing colon that looks just like it would and my new Vaquero you can see the “steps” as plain as day. I would say at the end of the 2.775 inches I would say it’s probably almost as thick as a piece of cardboard on a note book back cover where the steps are. Maybe it’s from whoever bored it that way?

    …Or I would say the “step” is of equal thickness of a plastic hull.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 06-24-2024 at 04:30 PM.

  3. #23
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    Oh my!

    Yes. Please post photos.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    One of my best friends who’s been a gunsmith and had his business for over 25 years said some of those old guns have “steps” like mine and some don’t. I remember asking him a few days ago about it. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it have forcing cones that basically have a “step” because it’s the way it was designed. Here’s a post showing some and what they look like similar to mine post number one and number 12 kinda reminds me of what mine look like Maybe I’m just not describing it properly to you guys confusing you just like my goofy measuring?…lol

    https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads...-cones.565724/

    I’ll have to pay through the post. I only did a quick skim when I did a Google on Damascus, forcing Cones in barrels. Like I said it looks like number one in post number 12 there’s literally a lip or in the edge from the chamber going up into the barrels. I would assume it’s designed so when your hole unfolds or un rolls the thickness of the hull ends up being even with the inside of the barrels for smooth wad and shot transition.

    There’s a picture about halfway down with all the photos showing inside the chambers how the forcing cones “step” i’m referring to in mine.

    https://www.dogsanddoubles.com/tag/damascus/
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 06-24-2024 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy
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    Everyone is getting sidetracked on the chamber size but not talking about the elephant in the room. DO NOT shoot a modern 10 ga shell in a Damascus shotgun made in 1873! Is the shotgun even nitro proofed?

  6. #26
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I have steps in mine! I’ll have to take a photo when I’m back over to the house and post it. It’s a forcing colon that looks just like it would and my new Vaquero you can see the “steps” as plain as day. I would say at the end of the 2.775 inches I would say it’s probably almost as thick as a piece of cardboard on a note book back cover where the steps are. Maybe it’s from whoever bored it that way?

    …Or I would say the “step” is of equal thickness of a plastic hull.
    how did you determine that the step you are seeing + feeling is the start of the forcing cone + not the end of it at the junction of the bore diameter + end of forcing cone ? - post a picture of a fired 2 7/8" shell - if the crimp is not open to same size as shell body, + shows even the slightest amount of constriction, you chamber is TOO short for the shell you are shooting -

    your quote - [ Or I would say the “step” is of equal thickness of a plastic hull. ]
    plastic shell casings were not invented till the 1960's, many decades before your gun was manufactured - back then the hulls were either brass or thick waxed paper + a step if it exists would be too thick for A brass shell + to thin for a paper shell - thats why the forcing cones are tapered -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

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  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    no it’s not nitro proofed. RST ammo advertises at safe to shoot in Damascus guns. It’s super low pressure ammo. I only shoot black powder hand loads in my gun now. I bought the RST ammo years ago before I started hand loading with black powder because it was advertised that it was Damascus safe and super low pressure ammo. So it’s modern “damascus safe” ammo. It’s what was recommended to me over at Parker guns and all the guys with their guns over there. Shoot the stuff I won’t shoot anymore of it but because it’s safe to shoot in my gun I probably will shoot it and burn it up for the hulls. Either that or I’ll sell it to somebody since it was about three dollars a shell plus shipping and you can’t even even get it anymore.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Well, maybe it’s not a hard step and it’s at an angle. I didn’t look down it with the flashlight. I can just see the dark edge…or taper with my naked eyes . It looks exactly like the photographs that were pictured on the links above in several of the other guns that are listed. It looks no different than any of the other ones if you google pictures of Damascus forcing cones. So they’re in my opinion there’s nothing wrong with the steps or tapers in my gun so I’m not worried about it. But right there at that edge is where you’re supposed to measure with a gauge and it has to stop so shotguns definitely do have forcing cones and tapers or steps or whatever you wanna call it or you wouldn’t be able to measure the chamber length.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    no it’s not nitro proofed. RST ammo advertises at safe to shoot in Damascus guns. It’s super low pressure ammo. I only shoot black powder hand loads in my gun now. I bought the RST ammo years ago before I started hand loading with black powder because it was advertised that it was Damascus safe and super low pressure ammo. So it’s modern “damascus safe” ammo. It’s what was recommended to me over at Parker guns and all the guys with their guns over there. Shoot the stuff I won’t shoot anymore of it but because it’s safe to shoot in my gun I probably will shoot it and burn it up for the hulls. Either that or I’ll sell it to somebody since it was about three dollars a shell plus shipping and you can’t even even get it anymore.
    This wasn't clear to me so I had to say something.....

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I appreciate it. I did a lot of research before I bought that ammo to make sure it was low pressure and safe for damascus. I believe they’re the only ones that I’m aware of that even loaded low pressure loads for them. I’m sure they do halfway decent because the guys over at Parker talk about them nonstop because I would guess none of the high rollers over there either don't have the time, or probably just don’t know how to reload. I was in that same boat because I didn’t reload shotgun at the time. After the poor patterns that ammo produced out of gun I took the time to start learning how to reload shotgun ammo a few years back.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    Well, maybe it’s not a hard step and it’s at an angle. I didn’t look down it with the flashlight. I can just see the dark edge…or taper with my naked eyes . It looks exactly like the photographs that were pictured on the links above in several of the other guns that are listed. It looks no different than any of the other ones if you google pictures of Damascus forcing cones. So they’re in my opinion there’s nothing wrong with the steps or tapers in my gun so I’m not worried about it. But right there at that edge is where you’re supposed to measure with a gauge and it has to stop so shotguns definitely do have forcing cones and tapers or steps or whatever you wanna call it or you wouldn’t be able to measure the chamber length.
    your quote ] it has to stop so shotguns definitely do have forcing cones and tapers or steps or whatever you wanna call it or you wouldn’t be able to measure the chamber length. ]

    you do NOT need a step to check the diameter with a gauge at any given point on it's inside diameter - most quality reamers are tapered at the throat + do not have a step - what would be the effect if a paper shell was shot in a chamber that had a shoulder cut for thin plastic cases ? - jmho i would have the chamber checked by a professional gunsmith experienced in shot gun chambers + barrels -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

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  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I appreciate your concern, it’s been inspected by two guns smiths since I’ve owned it. One that measured the chamber when I first bought it and a second that installed the hammers a few years. The one who installed the hammers also Inspected the barrels and the chambers to make sure it was safe to shoot. The second gunsmith went out and fired the gun. I’ve known him for over 30 years and he had his own gunsmith shop for 25. I actually went with him and we took turns shooting it. We fired a box and a half of RST ammo taking turns. I trust his opinion as he owns several of the old side-by-side himself so he knows what to look for when inspecting them.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    just curious - if you really trust the previous opinions, why all the concerns starting with your post # 1 ? - still believe that a professional diagnoses from a smith that specializes in shot gun barrels would be very advisable - fwiw simple + accurate to prove chamber length with economical plug gauge -

    https://www.brownells.com/tools-clea...?sku=080546010
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

    as they say in latin

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Those are cool. I’ll have to get one thanks.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    That’s basically the exact same type of tool. My gunsmith used back in the 90s but his was longer and silver. He did show me when he slid it in at the 2 7/8 mark so I even verified it with him at the time.

    The whole reason for this post is my stupidity in a nutshell because I did not zero my calipers when I measured an RST shell the other day. I got an incorrect longer reading of 2.7 inches on an unfired shell. The measurement in the chambers were correct as I verified yesterday. What was incorrect was my reading on the ammo. After Re verification up above, you can see it measures 2.405”. I also double checked everything with a plain old-fashioned ruler.

    Also got me on this “OCD obsession” is there are no proof marks on my gun except for the number 65 under the barrels, which I figured is in millimeter for the chamber lengths. If It really is for the chamber lengths was bored out at sometime. Im am getting a definite answer on what the 65 stands for other than my guess it’s for chamber lengths. I’ve asked the same question on the number 65 on double guns and parkers forum and it doesn’t sound like anybody over there knows either. So I guess it will just be a mystery and not worry about what the “65” stands for.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    I find it extremely hard to believe an American (or English) shotgun from 1875 would have any metric stampings. I find it almost as hard to believe that any ten gauge shotguns made for black powder and felt wads would be made with chambers shorter than 2-7/8" - you might as well use a 12 gauge. That's not to say shorter shells were not commercially loaded, and I understand that some 12 gauge guns were made for 2" shells (you don't need much length for a 1 ounce smokeless, roll crimped load)

    Still, I'll bet your Parker was born with 2-7/8" or longer chambers.
    Cap'n Morgan

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I pulled this off of Wikipedia just part of it. I thought it was interesting. I was told over on double guns that my gun was made in 1873 because of Deeley style fore end. Has matching stamps on the fore end so whenever it was produced, it’s all the same parts. According to Wikipedia they weren’t made in 1873…1875 it says. I guess if somebody was still living that worked for Charles Daly back in the day we could ask them…lol. I don’t think I’ll ever get a straight answer, but I don’t mind asking questions and getting opinions. Over on doublegun shop forum there are guys that own factory 2 1/2 inch chambered 10 gauges. It doesn’t make sense to me either why someone would manufacture them so short. Apparently the 10 gauge caliber was the first commercial offering (over seas and they were imported to the us) for shotguns back in the day from what “I read”. Sounds like the shortest offering in 10 gauge was 2 1/2 inch when they first started production with a “cartridge” chambering transitioning from 10 gauge muzzle loaders. Apparently manufacturers kept lengthening their way up to 2 7/8” and then came our the 12 gauge offering out and killed the 10 gaugesales back in the day with lighter handling and recoiling and guns. Once again that’s what “I’ve read”.


    Wikipedia…

    “Charles Daly was born in New York City on October 12, 1839. Around 1875 in New York City, Charles Daly and August Schoverling began importing firearms into the United States, primarily from the city of Suhl in what was then Prussia.[1] Manufacturers for Daly at that time included Heym, Shiller, H. A. Lindner, Sauer, J&W Tolley of England, Newman (of Belgium) and Lefever Arms.[2]


    Charles Daly combination gun advertisement (1887)
    In 1887 Schoverling and Daly were joined by a third partner named Joseph Gales, and the company began doing business as Schoverling, Daly, and Gales, before settling simply on the name Charles Daly.[3] The original Charles Daly died suddenly in 1899, but the business continued with his son, Charles Howard Daly, taking his place until 1919 when Henry Modell purchased the partnership.

    The new owners continued importing firearms and marketing them with the Charles Daly name until the late 1920s when the company was sold to the Walzer family, which owned Sloan's Sporting Goods in Ridgefield, Connecticut. The Walzers established a branch of Sloan's in New York City known as Charles Daly & Company. Manufacturers from all over the world produced Daly guns for the Walzers, including Beretta, Bernadelli, and Miroku.”


    So if they really didn’t start till 1875 and mines an 1873 model they must’ve been playing around with preproduction stuff or they just acquired a bunch of parts from a few years prior would be my guess and then they just assembled them with the parts they had. Or they just had a bunch they previously preassembled laying around for years that they sent over in 1875? I guess the world may never know….lol

    It also was made in Prussia for the time period…or at least the parts were and assembled in the U.S.?

    Here’s the complete listing on the Wikipedia page link

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly_firearms
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 06-27-2024 at 01:10 PM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Well, if the guns were European imports and 2-1/2 chambers were actually a thing, the 65 stamping makes sense (as does later reaming the chambers to a longer size) I have reamed several 2-3/4 guns to 3" and lived to tell about it

    On a sidenote, I have a beautiful German made 12 gauge pinfire shotgun from around 1860 or so. The chambers are 2-1/2 with no forcing cone what so ever - only an abrupt step between chamber and bore. The idea was probably to match the inner diameter of the hull with the bore and disturb the payload as little as possible.
    Cap'n Morgan

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Yeah, I would guess that it started its life for the 2 1/2 inch chamber and was bored out at sometime. It’s the only stamp underneath the barrel besides somebody’s initials that made it so it’s the only thing that would make sense to me, especially since I’ve read enough that 10 gauges started with 2 1/2 inch chambers and this is about his early as it gets for a first production cartridge 10 gauge when they transitioned from 10 gauge muzzleloaders.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I loaded up a couple of test subjects an hour or two ago. I cut my hulls down to 2.7 inches. So I’m .075” short of my forcing cones. I got a little fancy with the stacking and just squeezed it all in. I was using some Winchester hulls that I’m guessing are Chedite re branded hulls. I will have to Remember that in the future because they’re super thin and soft. I barely put any force on them and they were starting the bulge down by the brass. I used one to load up a 3 1/2 inch about a half hour later and I wrecked the case. I don’t know if I had enough lube inside the roller or if they were just so thin that I buckled the case when I was pushing down, haven’t had that before crimping.

    I double checked to make sure the ones that bulged a little bit will still chamber in my side-by-side to slide in to go in with a little bit of resistance, but they’ll be just fine. I’m sure once I fired them.



    I had just enough space to get all my components in. Here’s my homemade schematic of it.

    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 06-29-2024 at 09:25 PM.

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