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Thread: Cross patch advice

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Cross patch advice

    Recently got a 1969 vintage Lester Cox made muzzleloader. Itís set up with a false muzzle and bullet starter. Itís set up for cross patch. I put a slug thru the false muzzle and it came out .357. What paper should I use for the patch? Need to obtain a bullet mold so in part that will be determined by paper being used. This is a new rabbit hole for me. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Paper you choose rests entirely upon the bullet diameter to end up with.

    Consider the depth of your rifling, that will also determine the thickness of your paper also.

    Remember the false muzzle is often choked a bit including the last 4-6 inches of the barrel.

    You didn’t mention if that was the bore diameter you came up with or the Groove diameter?

    Kenny Wasserburger

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger View Post
    Paper you choose rests entirely upon the bullet diameter to end up with.

    Consider the depth of your rifling, that will also determine the thickness of your paper also.

    Remember the false muzzle is often choked a bit including the last 4-6 inches of the barrel.

    You didn’t mention if that was the bore diameter you came up with or the Groove diameter?

    Kenny Wasserburger
    I think it’s the bore diameter. Total rookie when it comes to this.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    You need to know. Otherwise can’t be much help to you. Measure from one groove too the other on your slug then the bullet part not cut by the grooves. These two measurements will give you the bore diameter and the groove diameter. Bore will be the smaller of the two numbers. That will give you a rough idea of how thick a paper you can use and the size of the bullet for a mould. I would start with a bullet no longer than 2 calibers long. And figure out the twist rate.

    Kenny

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger View Post
    You need to know. Otherwise can’t be much help to you. Measure from one groove too the other on your slug then the bullet part not cut by the grooves. These two measurements will give you the bore diameter and the groove diameter. Bore will be the smaller of the two numbers. That will give you a rough idea of how thick a paper you can use and the size of the bullet for a mould. I would start with a bullet no longer than 2 calibers long. And figure out the twist rate.

    Kenny
    Coming up with .350 and .357 1-15 twist. Not familiar with what 2 calibers would be in current language.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold Kentucky146's Avatar
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    Ken Wasserburger nailed it, you will need 5-10 of each size bullet that is appropriate to the weapon, of course with different patch sizes and shoot them at different targets from your preferred range, then ya pick the best group. Black Powder is a labor of love I often tell people, from purchase to build/restoration (or purchase/inheritance) to building the shot, patch size decision, powder charge volume/weight. Yes with black powder volume/weight (there is a +- 5 grains Pending the F,FF,FFF, FFFF) are the same IF BLACK POWDER is used not substitutes, as subs weigh different than volume, to cleaning. Nice Rifle none the less
    Last edited by Kentucky146; 05-15-2024 at 02:45 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky146 View Post
    Ken Wasserburger nailed it, you will need 5-10 of each size bullet that is appropriate to the weapon, of course with different patch sizes and shoot them at different targets from your preferred range, then ya pick the best group. Black Powder is a labor of love I often tell people, from purchase to build/restoration (or purchase/inheritance) to building the shot, patch size decision, powder charge volume/weight. Yes with black powder volume/weight (there is a +- 5 grains Pending the F,FF,FFF, FFFF) are the same IF BLACK POWDER is used not substitutes, as subs weigh different than volume, to cleaning. Nice Rifle none the less
    Thanks. since I am not a machinist not likely to have multiple choices in the bullet mold. Certainly an uncomplicated bullet. But I know the diameter and weight along with patch choice will factor into performance. Mainly hoping I can guess close to right when it come to getting a mold built. If I could make my own a fellow could fiddle significantly but cursed with being good looking instead of rich or talented LOL

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    I have a mould from Accurate that throws a .350" bullet about 210 grains. I use it in my 35 caliber inline muzzleloader, and paper patch it for the 35 centerfires. It does have tumble lube type grooves. I don't know if that would work in your rifle, you may be able to start it with thin paper and using the false muzzle. I am thinking of doing a run of them soon if you would like to try some.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    I have a mould from Accurate that throws a .350" bullet about 210 grains. I use it in my 35 caliber inline muzzleloader, and paper patch it for the 35 centerfires. It does have tumble lube type grooves. I don't know if that would work in your rifle, you may be able to start it with thin paper and using the false muzzle. I am thinking of doing a run of them soon if you would like to try some.
    I would certainly like to try them. Happy to find goods or some other form of remuneration. Certainly no rush. Still need to obtain suitable sights for the rifle. That’s a bit on hold. Have several guns at the gunsmith and thinking he has dibs on the left testical.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockingkj View Post
    Thanks. since I am not a machinist not likely to have multiple choices in the bullet mold. Certainly an uncomplicated bullet. But I know the diameter and weight along with patch choice will factor into performance. Mainly hoping I can guess close to right when it come to getting a mold built. If I could make my own a fellow could fiddle significantly but cursed with being good looking instead of rich or talented LOL
    You can get a custom mold made easily these days. Buffalo Arms or Steve Brooks could make one for you.

    There are very few people these days with experience with this type of rifle. Kenny is one of them.

    Chris.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Thanks I have looked at the custom mold options. True easy enough to get a mold built. I would like to guess right once and not have to buy multiple molds to get the best one. This mold would be not something anyone else would want. Not much demand for a $100 fishing sinker mold. I appreciate the sharing scarce info.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    One technique I used a number of years ago was to buy a few pin gauges that were at the size I believed I needed, then one 0.001" over, and one 0.001" under. I wrapped that with the various papers I had on hand to check the fit. That is an easy way to get the diameter right. For length it would be a bit trickier, but I'd err on the short side for the twist just in case. I wonder if it might also be a gain twist barrel?

    That is a pretty cool project. At one point I was thinking of getting into muzzleloading slug guns, but realized that I'd probably have to become a machinist to get the most out of it

    Chris.

  13. #13
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    Couple of things to think about - the depth of the slot gives you your maximum size patch. One that is cut by the rifling is too thin. Are you planning to use a lubed patch or to use a lubed boolit, or a lube cookie? With BP you will need one of the above. If you lube your patch it will thicken the patch but also help it resist cutting.

    Since you have a .357 grove a two caliber boolit would be .357x2 in length. You would have to do some calculations to determine the length of boolit a 1-15 rifling will stabilize.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Rockingkj's Avatar
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    Tentatively thinking lubed paper. But as previously stated a total rookie with this type of black powder rifle. Been a cloth patched round ball shooter for years.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Are or can the cross patches be cloth? I never would have thought to use paper. But then, ....... I've lead a sheltered life.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Always paper,

    Nye Oil is what I use, to lubricate the patches. Freezer paper is used by some.

    Kenny Wasserburger

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    I have a mould from Accurate that throws a .350" bullet about 210 grains. I use it in my 35 caliber inline muzzleloader, and paper patch it for the 35 centerfires. It does have tumble lube type grooves. I don't know if that would work in your rifle, you may be able to start it with thin paper and using the false muzzle. I am thinking of doing a run of them soon if you would like to try some.
    I just read “The Paper Jacket” today. I’d like to get on the list to buy some of those samples too please.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Thanks, Kenny

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