RepackboxRotoMetals2Titan ReloadingSnyders Jerky
MidSouth Shooters SupplyWidenersLoad DataLee Precision
Inline Fabrication
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Experience with indenter/crimp tool

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nowhere wonderfull
    Posts
    2,009

    Experience with indenter/crimp tool

    Anyone used such a tool.
    Pliers like ; that indents the neck to keep lead bullets in.
    I am starting to play with such an idea.
    I haven’t a loading tool for this case but finger seat the healed cast bullet in my 310 cadet cases.
    After a while some cases get a bit thin around the neck area and the bullets want to fall out , even if I use a bit of lube to keep them in.

    I found a crimp tool of sorts I can indent my cases and keep the bullet in the case.
    Good for me Whoohoo.

    I’m hoping that the indent expands some with firing and make the next bullet seated into the case a firm fit.

    If not it will tear a groove down the heal of the bullet and make a mess of accuracy and my barrel.

    Anyone have much experience in indenting brass cases.

    I will report when I get time to fire them.

    Thanks.
    Bruce.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    2,530
    No experience with a hand plier-type crimper, but this is also how the rifle-type factory crimp die works. Is there a way to use or modify the FCD for your cartridge in a standard press?. It would likely yield more consistent results as it actuates off of the ram stroke.

    This may not be the route you want to go, but you could possibly lighlty crimp an empty case to get a bullet to "snap" in or be a light press-fit without distorting the case. Not knowing the plier type crimp you want to use, I have concerns of making the case oval or otherwise distorted.

    Just another option, if it could work for you.

    If the crimp would tighten enough (.335 nominal to 0.327- nominal), the M1 carbine FCD could be shortened to collet crimp the 310 cadet case. (1.290 shortened to 1.12).

    It is easy to shorten the crimp insert. I am just not sure if the collet will close the extra 0.008".

    It might be a relatively cheap alternative.

    I have a 300 blackout FCD I could check and see what the maximum crimp is (ID with collet closed all the way.

    If this would work, you could also crimp your loaded cartridges to survive a bit of rougher handling.
    Last edited by BK7saum; 05-01-2024 at 06:51 AM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Location
    Middle Tennessee for now. Want to buy land out west, somewhere cool and dry!
    Posts
    683
    Quote Originally Posted by BK7saum View Post
    No experience with a hand plier-type crimper, but this is also how the rifle-type factory crimp die works. Is there a way to use or modify the FCD for your cartridge in a standard press?. It would likely yield more consistent results as it actuates off of the ram stroke.

    This may not be the route you want to go, but you could possibly lighlty crimp an empty case to get a bullet to "snap" in or be a light press-fit without distorting the case. Not knowing the plier type crimp you want to use, I have concerns of making the case oval or otherwise distorted.

    Just another option, if it could work for you.

    If the crimp would tighten enough (.335 nominal to 0.327- nominal), the M1 carbine FCD could be shortened to collet crimp the 310 cadet case. (1.290 shortened to 1.12).

    It is easy to shorten the crimp insert. I am just not sure if the collet will close the extra 0.008".

    It might be a relatively cheap alternative.

    I have a 300 blackout FCD I could check and see what the maximum crimp is (ID with collet closed all the way.

    If this would work, you could also crimp your loaded cartridges to survive a bit of rougher handling.
    Would it work to grind open the gaps wider on a Factory Crimp Die to make it crimp deeper/smaller diameter?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    2,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry54 View Post
    Would it work to grind open the gaps wider on a Factory Crimp Die to make it crimp deeper/smaller diameter?
    It probably would at that. The FCD can already put a hefty crimp on 30 cal cases. If the 0.327" is loaded diameter, the OP may only need to crimp to 0.329 or 0.330 anyway.

    But widening the gaps on the collet, it should easily allow the collet to crimp tighter to a smaller ID.
    Last edited by BK7saum; 05-01-2024 at 07:34 AM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle of the Mitten
    Posts
    1,576
    Quote Originally Posted by BK7saum View Post
    It probably would at that. The FCD can already put a hefty crimp on 30 cal cases. If the 0.327" is loaded diameter, the OP may only need to crimp to 0.329 or 0.330 anyway.

    But widening the gaps on the collet, it should easily allow the collet to crimp tighter to a smaller ID.
    The Die does Not need to be pushed all the way... unscrew it a bit!!!!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Location
    Middle Tennessee for now. Want to buy land out west, somewhere cool and dry!
    Posts
    683
    Quote Originally Posted by racepres View Post
    The Die does Not need to be pushed all the way... unscrew it a bit!!!!
    This discussion about getting the die to close further is part of a discussion about using the die for a cartridge different from what it was manufactured to work on.

    Cheaper than having a custom die made...

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    2,530
    Quote Originally Posted by racepres View Post
    The Die does Not need to be pushed all the way... unscrew it a bit!!!!
    !!!!!Nobody is saying screw the die all the way in for the caliber the die was designed for!!!!!

    The case mouth is nominally 0.008" (0.327") smaller than the FCD desgnated caliber (0.335")

    This situation may require srewing the die all the way in or even modifying it to crimp even tighter.

    You do understand we are talking about modifying a 30 carbine FCD for use in a 310 cadet heeled bullet cartridge, correct?

    Of course, a FCD doesn't need to be screwed in all the way for the intended/designed catridge.
    Last edited by BK7saum; 05-01-2024 at 09:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    13,690
    Check Old West Molds. He modifies the Lee die for heeled boolits and probably already has one for the 310 Cadet.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    2,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    Check Old West Molds. He modifies the Lee die for heeled boolits and probably already has one for the 310 Cadet.
    Excellent suggestion.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy

    K43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    130
    EDIT: BK7saum beat me to it.

    Lee Factory Crimp Die. Not only is Bob your uncle, it's been done, modified by some to allow better clearance for heeled bullets, etc., etc., etc.
    I've seen electrical crimping pliers modified by someone too cheap to buy a proper crimp die. Same type of thing done to electrical crimpers to make a cheap bullet puller. The results were not as good as getting a real purpose designed die.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nowhere wonderfull
    Posts
    2,009
    Gee Willikers Batman!
    I didn’t think I’d get this much of a responce.

    I looked up old west molds and yes they have a 310 crimp die.
    This is a photo of the crimp from a pair of pliers which has wire stripping? Holes in it.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_2687.jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	43.7 KB 
ID:	326184
    Any way I got thinking that I can seat a bullet and push it into the form die I use. Sizes the case to a 0.310 inside neck diameter and I need 0.315 for my heal base in fired cases.
    No soot or blow by on the neck and better consistency.
    And I don’t have neck troubles.
    If I was smart and talented I could ream or machine out the neck area of the die to suit.
    But I don’t think so.
    In the past I had trouble loading in the die as withdrawing the loaded round I had used a screw driver to pry out the round that inevitably damaged the cases rims.
    So I gave that up years ago.

    Had a light bulb moment when I thought I would have to spend money and tapered off the de-re priming tool I knocked up I can now wedge the tool under the case and lever it out.
    This rough fix will get me going again for a while I hope.

    I had seen those oldie tapered one piece load dies they used back in the day but could never figure out how they got the loaded case out.
    Maybe this is it.

    Sorry for the hassle and somewhat swerve ball response.
    Bruce
    Last edited by barrabruce; 05-01-2024 at 09:29 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nowhere wonderfull
    Posts
    2,009
    Whoops
    Well that was all wrong in a way.
    If I size my cases in the form tool that I have the, "old worn" case necks are still too loose.
    Getting a tight loaded round out of the die if I use it and need it has been solved thou.

    I got out my pipe cutter and formed a cannalure in the loose cases neck with seated bullet.
    It works but it also rubs the seated bullet by the way it works.
    Making a cannalure of a few thou in the empty neck works but can distort the neck some.
    So I’ve decided I will make a cannalure in the empty case then put it through the size die to true things up some.
    The bullets will now "click" in the case and hold the bullet from escaping.

    Boy , lots of work compare to just finger seating in a formed case but them that breaks I suppose.

    Please someone remind me to never try and scrape and clean out my cases ever again.
    This is where I believe things started to go pear shaped when I tried to scrape out many firing of gunk from different fillers and experiments.
    Scraping the inside of the brass clean.
    What was I thinking.

    So I’m in for a cannalure or crimp.
    From past experience in cannaluring , eventually the brass hardens and it stays pretty well much as is and doesn’t need redoing.
    But then the crimp is easy and there done on a case I find loose after I loaded it.

    I shall have lots to play with now.

    I might try one case of each method and just load then at the bench to see how multiple loadings hold up and perform.

    (There goes another packet of primers and powder)

    I may end up making a whole new batch of brass one day,using the same cases.
    I do use the rifle for the service cadet shoots and if things get too hairy I will have to up my game to be competitive and get all benchresty/ultra longe range prepping and manicuring.
    Even sort out bullets.


    Bruce
    Last edited by barrabruce; 05-01-2024 at 11:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Dec 2022
    Posts
    42
    I make these for 22lr. Bernie at Old West Molds makes them for different calibers.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nowhere wonderfull
    Posts
    2,009
    Quote Originally Posted by Cris T View Post
    I make these for 22lr. Bernie at Old West Molds makes them for different calibers.
    Unreal how you have made those crimp dies.
    Hmmm
    More food for thought.
    Looks like a bloke could keep himself busy for a while.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central VA
    Posts
    5,596
    Quote Originally Posted by barrabruce View Post
    Anyone used such a tool.
    Pliers like ; that indents the neck to keep lead bullets in.
    I am starting to play with such an idea.
    I haven’t a loading tool for this case but finger seat the healed cast bullet in my 310 cadet cases.
    After a while some cases get a bit thin around the neck area and the bullets want to fall out , even if I use a bit of lube to keep them in.

    I found a crimp tool of sorts I can indent my cases and keep the bullet in the case.
    Good for me Whoohoo.

    I’m hoping that the indent expands some with firing and make the next bullet seated into the case a firm fit.

    If not it will tear a groove down the heal of the bullet and make a mess of accuracy and my barrel.

    Anyone have much experience in indenting brass cases.

    I will report when I get time to fire them.

    Thanks.
    Bruce.
    Bruce,

    When I first saw this, I thought you must be talking about the 45-70 indenter tool system developed about 130 years ago by Ideal. They were used for downloading the Govt rounds for indoor armory use.

    There was a plier type tool to put a set of evenly spaced indentations on the case neck and a fluted decapping rod to clear the dents during decapping. The problem was that the dents blew out with time and had to be re-dented, creating a weak spot at each dent, which subsequently blew out altogether. They didn't last long and are a real curiosity/collectible today.

    Froggie
    "It aint easy being green!"

  16. #16
    Moderator
    Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    14,566
    An automatic center punch(set correctly)will provide a decent stab crimp.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nowhere wonderfull
    Posts
    2,009
    All good ideas, thanks.

    Froggy that was what I was trying to remember, and I even looked thou a squillion pictures of shotgun crimping tools and such but never found it.

    Best was a real pointy adjustable depth one which most likes put a hole in the brass first go.

    I had forgot about the fluted decapping pin to clear the indents.


    The “ clicky" cannalure trick may end up being best if I make a tool for it.

    Results may dictate the outcome.

    lol
    Bruce

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central VA
    Posts
    5,596
    Bruce,
    The most thorough description of the Ideal tool in question, that I’ve ever seen at least, was in the Lyman Centennial journal they put out back in the ‘70s. I still see them around from time to time.
    Froggie
    "It aint easy being green!"

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nowhere wonderfull
    Posts
    2,009
    Well I tested out some ammo today and I the groove type ring is way better than little indent spots.
    The groups showed better performance with the groove and I can run a M die in the case to open it up some if needed if I get a bit ham fisted

    The little indents were more of a pain and harder for me to get even without a proper set up.

    Thanks all.
    Just have to make a cannalure tool now

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Rapier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    1,554
    There must be someone in Aus that has a taper crimp die for the 310 Cadet case. Based on my experience with a Lyman tong tool, the roll crimp dies are a shambles, OK for tin cans at 20 ft. But I found the taper crimp on 38/357s to be much better. The taper crimp dies allows for errors (case length, bullet size, old brass, die alignment, etc) way better that other crimp methods. However getting good results required seating and crimping in two steps.
    “There is a remedy for all things, save death.“
    Cervantes

    “Never give up, never quit.”
    Robert Rogers
    Roger’s Rangers

    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
    Will Rogers

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check