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Thread: Next Generation Squad Weapon and optic exceed paratrooper expectations

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    Ryan

    In the next war, a $10,000 rifle and scope for each soldier is not realistic. As I posted before, in 1913 the Brits wanted to drop the rimmed .303 for a new rifle and cartridge. WWI interfered and the .303 soldiered on. In the 1930s, the Brits developed the No. 4, Mk1 and the .303 soldiered on until 1957.

    The average soldier is not a rifleman, so why equip each so? If the enemy is using body armor, go for head shots! LOL.

    Rifles, of any caliber, may not be the deciding factor in our next war. Armed drones will "seek and destroy" long before the Mattel 16, .308 or the new rifles comes into play. Whatever. Idle thoughts of an old farmer.
    Be well.
    Adam

    Lots of branch's and career fields are giving more than 10K a year enlistment bonus to maintain manning. In modern warfare 10K for a weapons system is very cheap compared to most. Also, they are not going to everyone. Only the pointy end of the spear with a very real need will be issued them.

    Claiming the average soldier is not a rifleman then claiming the solution to body armor is head shots is interest to say the least????? Also, part of the body armor system may be a helmet with minimal fontal opening and no side or back opening.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-29-2024 at 07:13 PM.
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  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Wonder what the recoil is compared to 308/223?
    Whatever!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickinTN View Post
    The 6.8mm round delivers energy on target that outperforms the 7.62mm round,

    I have not studied the 6.8 SPC round but I don't think this is the case. Is there someone here better versed than I on this subject? Please chime in.
    Take care,
    Rick
    It is not the 6.8SPC. It is a totally new cartridge.

  4. #64
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    I am another in favor of the new round. Yes, it might have been done better, but, at least it's in the right direction.

    $10k per front line soldier is cheap these days.

  5. #65
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    I find it humorous that we see so many, so enthusiastic, so gushing over a new high velocity and odd caliber round. But then again; I guess it's been that way since the advent of smokeless powder. After all; we only need a faster, different caliber, innovative need round to overcome our inability to aim well, judge wind and distance well, or overcome bad woodcraft/stalking skills to achieve our objective.

    Have seen "The New Glorious Round" effort for the military complex for the duration of my life, yet we are still mostly dependent on that .223/.308/.50BMG. Hollywood can be useful on rare occasion, perhaps they can help us out by showing what a change in tactics can accomplish instead of a newer and better bull whip:

    Last edited by MUSTANG; 05-31-2024 at 11:23 AM.
    Mustang

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MUSTANG View Post
    I find it humorous that we see so many, so enthusiastic, so gushing over a new high velocity and odd caliber round. But then again; I guess it's been that way since the advent of smokeless powder. After all; we only need a faster, different caliber, innovative need round to overcome our inability to aim well, judge wind and distance well, or overcome bad woodcraft/stalking skills to achieve our objective.

    Have seen "The New Glorious Round" effort for the military complex for the duration of my life, yet we are still mostly dependent on that .223/.308/.50BMG. Hollywood can be useful on rare occasion, perhaps they can help us out by showing what a change in tactics can accomplish instead of a newer and better bull whip:

    Mustang,
    SIR, you ask very proper questions! WHY do we need a new round and a scope? A scope has LIMITED applications: it is ok for a sunny day long range head, or body, shot. What happens when that scope-equipped soldier has a nighttime enemy soldier jumping over the edge of his foxhole?

    Military "Intelligence" baffled me when I served and later earned a degree in history. I have a farm to run. Let us spend more and more so the 33 Trillion stays up there! LOL.
    Be well.
    Adam

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    Mustang,
    SIR, you ask very proper questions! WHY do we need a new round and a scope? A scope has LIMITED applications: it is ok for a sunny day long range head, or body, shot. What happens when that scope-equipped soldier has a nighttime enemy soldier jumping over the edge of his foxhole?

    Military "Intelligence" baffled me when I served and later earned a degree in history. I have a farm to run. Let us spend more and more so the 33 Trillion stays up there! LOL.
    Be well.
    Adam
    Wow just wow. The US has the best night vison in the world. The M-4 started being equipped with the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight (ACOG) in 1995. About 15 years ago the ACOG became standard on most if not all M-4's. It is a deployment requirement. Optics have been standard for at least 15 years. That is why NRA service rifle competitions have been able to use optic since 2016.

    ‘We Own the Night’: The Rise And Fall Of The US Military’s Night-Vision Dominance
    https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tact...at%20advantage.
    For decades, the U.S. military has prided itself on “owning the night” thanks to its unmatched night-vision technology. From the early days, when soldiers used clunky infrared scopes to detect and beat back Japanese night raids in Okinawa, the United States has maintained that advantage.


    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/v...rol-nsgw-fc-2/

    Vortex incorporates two different enablers into the XM157, one of which had the rangefinder attached. They mentioned the ability to use a camera that could pair with the Army’s Integrated Visual Augmentation System. This would allow the XM157 to link to helmet-mounted systems to allow the user to see through the scope without actually peering through the optic. Pairing with devices such as the IVAS would allow soldiers to shoot from behind cover while sticking their weapons around the corner and seeing through the optic via the wireless heads-up display

    Currently, this optic will still work with traditional PVS-24/30-night vision clip-on systems, but Vortex hinted at the ability to add a thermal overlay or other types of sensors to the XM157 to give more functionality at night.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-31-2024 at 02:02 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  8. #68
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    Maybe we should also equip folks with shotguns for anti-drone defense? I'd imagine some #6 shot would ruin a drone pretty quickly.

  9. #69
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    When I was in the USMC, just about every armory had a complement of Shotguns (Pump) along with the Rifles, Machine Guns, Etc... Those shotguns were NOT just for Guard duty. Hard to beat a shotgun for clearing Buildings, Tunnels, and other areas. For some reason they have fallen into disfavor for large volume spraying in clearing operations. Bring them out for Anti-Drone Support. Yes; the electronic counter measures guys/gals can do some good work in addressing the drones (I have worked with them and some of the capabilities from 20 to 30 years ago would still WOW most people; but when those counter measures fail, a few shotguns in each platoon for "Drone Outage Duty" would be beneficial.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  10. #70
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    Ryan

    In the next war, a $10,000 rifle and scope for each soldier is not realistic. As I posted before, in 1913 the Brits wanted to drop the rimmed .303 for a new rifle and cartridge. WWI interfered and the .303 soldiered on. In the 1930s, the Brits developed the No. 4, Mk1 and the .303 soldiered on until 1957.

    The average soldier is not a rifleman, so why equip each so? If the enemy is using body armor, go for head shots! LOL.

    Rifles, of any caliber, may not be the deciding factor in our next war. Armed drones will "seek and destroy" long before the Mattel 16, .308 or the new rifles comes into play. Whatever. Idle thoughts of an old farmer.
    Be well.
    Adam
    Simpler yet, shoot him repeatedly. Ceramic Level IV gets destroyed by multiple hits, and even steel weakens.

  11. #71
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    I am not sure as to what our current military strategy is when it comes to drones. However, they are going to be a real problem on the modern battlefield. Already are in Ukraine.
    Both sides are using them and to a tremendous effect on tanks and other vehicles. Drones also could be a real counter to helicopters. The economics of a $1,000.00 drone taking out a $2,000,000.00 plus helicopter is just amazing. I think a couple of drones taking on the new Russian super hind helicopter would be very interesting. Drones will be a major player when China invades Taiwan. The modern battlefield is becoming more and more technology driven and even more deadly than ever before. I don't think Vietnam style, face to face fighting will happen on the modern battlefield unless the sides have already attrited each others command and control abilities and negated the ability to use the modern satellites, laser and electronic guidance systems, etc. In other words, back to Korea and Vietnam warfare. We might even see a return of the old time turn and burn dogfighting in the air of years past. In the next great war, another thing will disappear. Concern for civilian casualties. Civilians will suffer just as much as soldiers, Russia has already shown that killing civilians in an attempt to intimidate governments will be on the table and China certainly will have no qualms in making war on civilians. Just my thinking anyway, james

  12. #72
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    M-Tecs,

    So how do Night Optics help when in nighttime a foe comes over the top of your foxhole?

    Jak and Mustang,

    I recommend #4 Buckshot for drones and foxhole raiders and a good 12 gauge.

    I got a farm to run.

    Be well.

    Adam

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/v...rol-nsgw-fc-2/

    Vortex incorporates two different enablers into the XM157, one of which had the rangefinder attached. They mentioned the ability to use a camera that could pair with the Army’s Integrated Visual Augmentation System. This would allow the XM157 to link to helmet-mounted systems to allow the user to see through the scope without actually peering through the optic. Pairing with devices such as the IVAS would allow soldiers to shoot from behind cover while sticking their weapons around the corner and seeing through the optic via the wireless heads-up display

    Currently, this optic will still work with traditional PVS-24/30-night vision clip-on systems, but Vortex hinted at the ability to add a thermal overlay or other types of sensors to the XM157 to give more functionality at night.
    Great, wireless displays in front of our soldiers eyes, and wireless sensors telling them where to shoot. I happen to know for a fact just how fragile such RF dependent systems are, and the sorts of remote attack surfaces opened up with increasing digitization. Increased complexity is an invitation to Mr. Murphy.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumptyDumpty View Post
    Great, wireless displays in front of our soldiers eyes, and wireless sensors telling them where to shoot. I happen to know for a fact just how fragile such RF dependent systems are, and the sorts of remote attack surfaces opened up with increasing digitization. Increased complexity is an invitation to Mr. Murphy.
    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/v...ilable%20today.
    So what is the XM157 or the NGSW-FC? Well, the FC is the fire-control or XM157 optic system that will be used for the next-generation squad weapon. From the ground up, the XM157 is a 1-8x30mm optic that features Vortex’s revolutionary “Active Reticle®” technology. At its heart, it works just like a standard low-powered variable optic or LPVO, but encompassed in the housing is the fire-control system that sets this optic apart from everything else available today. The XM157 is what many call a “smart scope” due to its integration of a digital display overlay, laser range finder, ballistics calculator, atmospheric sensors, compass, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and Intra-Soldier Wireless. However, the XM157 still works in a zero power state due to its core utilization of a standard 1-8x FFP optic with an etched reticle. This provides an analog image with a digital overlay for calculated holds.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-31-2024 at 07:53 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    M-Tecs,

    So how do Night Optics help when in nighttime a foe comes over the top of your foxhole?

    Jak and Mustang,

    I recommend #4 Buckshot for drones and foxhole raiders and a good 12 gauge.

    I got a farm to run.

    Be well.

    Adam
    If they are coming over the top of your foxhole you weren't using your night vision properly since even the older issued ones were good to 300 meters. Not sure what range the new ones are good for but it's well over 1,000 yards.

    A buddy has a new thermal. From his house to the fence line it'd a little over 900 yards. He can watch deer and coyotes at that distance on a clouded over moonless night.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-31-2024 at 05:31 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  16. #76
    Boolit Mold ttd444's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakharath View Post
    Maybe we should also equip folks with shotguns for anti-drone defense? I'd imagine some #6 shot would ruin a drone pretty quickly.
    the only thing a shotgun is good for is a suicide drone and that would be iffy at best. 32 feet/second is the speed objects fall. 5 second grenade is around 400 feet when it blows up. so you are telling me with a shotgun and a load of #6s will ruin a drone. i don't so. if you take 40mm grenade or an RPG or a tank mine, the sky is the limit. and that is for commercial drones. imagine military drones and the missile and bomb ordnance, that would be mind boggling.
    Russian Admiral said, after the Moskva sank, "we have the world's worst navy but we aren't as bad as our army".

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