SMith and Wesson age and parts

[Thom_44]

SInce ive been hankering for a smith and wesson revolver, I thought id get online and try to see if i could find a legendary vintage smith at "reasonable prices" folks talk about. And oddly enough, I actually am finding them.

Even finding model 28s for less then a current production model 10. Almost swallowed my tongue.


Looking deeper at the listings, i noticed cosmetic issues of course. Extra cost to fix. But what hit me is that most of them are -3 to -7 K frame variants.

What are the chances of getting replacement parts for them these days? Ive seen some articles online with statements that no parts for guns before 1990 exist, some state no parts pre 2000 are possible. Im talking screws, springs, triggers, and the like.

[contender1]

There are a few companies like "Numrich Arms" and "Jack First" that often get older parts for guns. Then there are places like "sleezebay" & others where parts are often offered. The hardest ones to find are listed as "New, Old Stock" types. But there are a LOT of parts out there for pre 1990 guns.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Agree. Still relatively easy to find most parts.

DG

[jdgabbard]

Yeah, chances of finding NEW parts, or even NOS, is dwindling. Even for my Model 65, a K frame 357, pretty much the only thing you're going to find is used parts. And that was THE gun of law enforcement for several decades. You might get lucky, you might not. The good news is, most of the time, outside of springs and such, you're probably not going to need to replace any major parts. The thing is, wear on revolvers typically happens to the core parts over time. Such as frame stretch, yoke stretch, flame cutting, forcing cone erosion (or cracking in K frames). You might be able to find a barrel, or have one made. You might be able to find a yoke if you need one. Cylinder stops can generally be cleaned up a bit. Even firing pins can be repaired with a new bushing. But you can't readily replace a frame once it has significant stretch to it. But this happens with a LOT of use. Many have guns with nearly 100k rounds through them, and are perfectly safe guns to shoot. Though, possibly looser than they once were.

[rintinglen]

I dare say there are hundreds if not thousands of parts for S&W revolvers out there. In total S&W has made well over 6 million of them. Usually, the difference between a -3 and a -8 is pretty negligible , but the 10-2/10-3 guns have a couple of differences that amount to something: the extractor rod was changed to a left hand thread to prevent it from backing out and tying up the gun. The 10-5/10-6 models dropped the screw at the front of the trigger guard, while the 10-8 model saw the end of the pinned barrels. There were similar changes made in the case of other K-frames, the Model 14- 19, but the "-" will vary, for example, a 13-3 has the same changes as the model 10-8.

[Bigslug]

These are guns that largely went out of front line LE service in the U.S. by the middle 1980's, but they WERE the guns that everybody used from about the 1930's until that time. In that regard, they're kind of like Volkswagen Beetles: the supply is fixed and gradually decreasing, but it'll still be a long time before the parts and the cars disappear off the road. Cast your net wide for the online parts sellers and see what you can score. Sourcing components and knowing good mechanics is simply a reality of running the old stuff, and as such it's probably best to not depend on it as your daily driver unless you actually ARE the guy that hoarded up a barn full of Model T parts.


As JDGabbard hints at, the trick to the K's is to accept that .357 is not really what they were meant to shoot, and while the old 27 and 28's WERE meant to shoot it, it's worth remembering that there are plenty of new stainless guns from Smith, Ruger, and Colt rolling off the line that still have support for if things get out of whack from shooting the hot stuff. If you're starting out with a vintage piece that you found tight and in time, you'll be able to shoot a lot of standard spec .38 through a K; +P .38 level stuff through the 27,28, & HD Outdoorsman; or .44 Special through an early 29 before anything goes amiss, and staying on top of minor wear will keep it running longer than you'll be around to run it.

[racepres]

These are guns that largely went out of front line LE service in the U.S. by the middle 1980's, but they WERE the guns that everybody used from about the 1930's until that time. In that regard, they're kind of like Volkswagen Beetles: the supply is fixed and gradually decreasing, but it'll still be a long time before the parts and the cars disappear off the road. Cast your net wide for the online parts sellers and see what you can score. Sourcing components and knowing good mechanics is simply a reality of running the old stuff, and as such it's probably best to not depend on it as your daily driver unless you actually ARE the guy that hoarded up a barn full of Model T parts.


As JDGabbard hints at, the trick to the K's is to accept that .357 is not really what they were meant to shoot, and while the old 27 and 28's WERE meant to shoot it, it's worth remembering that there are plenty of new stainless guns from Smith, Ruger, and Colt rolling off the line that still have support for if things get out of whack from shooting the hot stuff. If you're starting out with a vintage piece that you found tight and in time, you'll be able to shoot a lot of standard spec .38 through a K; +P .38 level stuff through the 27,28, & HD Outdoorsman; or .44 Special through an early 29 before anything goes amiss, and staying on top of minor wear will keep it running longer than you'll be around to run it.

Agree Totally... well put

[jdgabbard]

...the trick to the K's is to accept that .357 is not really what they were meant to shoot, and while the old 27 and 28's WERE meant to shoot it, it's worth remembering that there are plenty of new stainless guns from Smith, Ruger, and Colt rolling off the line that still have support for if things get out of whack from shooting the hot stuff.

One thing I'll add, often times those guns that are MEANT to shoot a regular diet of 357 magnum loads can be had at a price that is very comparable, or even less than the vintage variants.

I just bought a brand new Ruger GP100 (6shot, not the 7 shot) with a 6" barrel and adjustable sights for $717 out the door. That is the whole price, gun, tax, etc... And while the trigger was a little "sticky" on one particular chamber (likely a slightly imperfect ratchet) this cleaned up VERY smooth after about 100rds of shooting 38spl loads at the range. Now, it's like a laser beam at 25 yards with a really nice trigger pull. Not to mention, the larger size of the GP100 makes shooting full house magnums rather pleasant, versus the k-frames which can sometimes be rather painful.

[Thom_44]

The wear and tear is something I do have to ask about. Especially since im most interested in the K frame family.

I had today off for Good Friday so I decided to make it a really good friday. Got up early, went to a gun range that i heard mention of, rented a few guns. Scammers in a way, pay 20$ a half hour per gun, plus you have to purchase ammunition from them. Not fun paying 1$ a round of remington green box 130 grain fmj 38 special.

The guns I bent over to rent were an EAA Windicator, a taurus 4" model with adjustable sights, and a heritage SAA .
The flat point of that bullet fed well, but god was it noisy. And the recoil was not fun. It was heavy. But Im not exactly sure if the ammo they were selling was genuine factory. The cases were shiny, but had lots of black specks on them that wouldnt rub off. I had one case split from the web to mouth, i pocketed that empty fast.

But as to how the recoil felt, in these guns that ammo felt like a factory loaded hornady 240 grain JHP. After 100 rounds my arms are actually SORE

[30calflash]

Jerry Miculek covers some wear issues and how to avoid them in one of his utube vids. Definitely worth catching, could help avoid parts replacement over the long haul if followed.

Also running less than the full fireworks in a revolver will help. You don't see people driving their vehicle wide open in 2nd gear on the highway to get to cruising speed, right? Same goes for any other machine.

[contender1]

For the OP,,!

You asked about S&W parts & express a bit of worry over wearing out parts & being able to replace any.

Yet,, you went to a range & shot 3 guns,, none of which were any S&W models. The Taurus was the closest to a S&W.

But, let's look at parts, wear & tear, & all on the 3 guns you tried.

Heritage,, from every person I've ever spoken to that shot a fair amount of ammo through a Heritage,, they all said things like; "It's an ok gun for so little money. But I've had XYZ wear out or get out of whack." For me,, that'd be a now way gun to buy.

EAA; Apparently they can build some of their guns quite well. Yet,, try getting spare parts or good customer service from overseas. There's a guy on another forum who has spent a lot of time on the phone with them, as well as having friends overseas,, and STILL can not get the parts he seeks. If parts are a concern,, pass.

Taurus. While I have friends at Taurus,, I can say that their customer service & QC can be spotty at best. I know of more than one revolver from them that arrived new to a local shop/gunsmith that needed service even before the first rounds were fired. He had one .44 mag revolver that it took Taurus 1-1/2 YEARS to finally replace. And we've received several Taurus guns for our FoNRA event,, new & had to return them for issues. This year,, I refused to buy any Taurus handguns for our event BECAUSE of so many returns.

So,, let's get back to S&W.
Yes,, they can & will cost more than any of the 3 guns you tried. But as a wise man once taught me; "Buy once, cry once,,because the quality will last a long time. Money can be made,, but frustration is expensive!" I'd strongly suggest you stay with your idea of a S&W and just plan on spending a little more up front, and be a lot happier in the long run.

[Thom_44]

For the OP,,!

You asked about S&W parts & express a bit of worry over wearing out parts & being able to replace any.

Yet,, you went to a range & shot 3 guns,, none of which were any S&W models. The Taurus was the closest to a S&W.

But, let's look at parts, wear & tear, & all on the 3 guns you tried.

Heritage,, from every person I've ever spoken to that shot a fair amount of ammo through a Heritage,, they all said things like; "It's an ok gun for so little money. But I've had XYZ wear out or get out of whack." For me,, that'd be a now way gun to buy.

EAA; Apparently they can build some of their guns quite well. Yet,, try getting spare parts or good customer service from overseas. There's a guy on another forum who has spent a lot of time on the phone with them, as well as having friends overseas,, and STILL can not get the parts he seeks. If parts are a concern,, pass.

Taurus. While I have friends at Taurus,, I can say that their customer service & QC can be spotty at best. I know of more than one revolver from them that arrived new to a local shop/gunsmith that needed service even before the first rounds were fired. He had one .44 mag revolver that it took Taurus 1-1/2 YEARS to finally replace. And we've received several Taurus guns for our FoNRA event,, new & had to return them for issues. This year,, I refused to buy any Taurus handguns for our event BECAUSE of so many returns.

So,, let's get back to S&W.
Yes,, they can & will cost more than any of the 3 guns you tried. But as a wise man once taught me; "Buy once, cry once,,because the quality will last a long time. Money can be made,, but frustration is expensive!" I'd strongly suggest you stay with your idea of a S&W and just plan on spending a little more up front, and be a lot happier in the long run.

The only smith and wesson they had was a 9mm semi auto, i do dont do semi autos because with my no line bifocals, the amount of movement makes it look like a baseball bat is coming at my face everytime the slide moves. Someone mentioned it looked sort of like a drunk cat walking around a rocking chair, the way i react to the slide movement.

Yes the Taurus is based on an elderly SW design.. however I never made any statement of wanting to buy one. Merely just wanted to do some 38 special shooting at a place i had never heard of before. Looked at my reciept and noted that the cost of renting the gun was turned into a 5$ coupon off the purchase price of a gun.

But that does point back to the main question, age and parts. I dont have any idea as to how to figure out if the frame on a 1968 built K frame is worn out or not.

[Bigslug]

But that does point back to the main question, age and parts. I dont have any idea as to how to figure out if the frame on a 1968 built K frame is worn out or not.

If you want to start deep diving:

END-SHAKE: You shouldn't be able to move the cylinder fore and aft in the frame very much when the gun is closed up. Used to be you had to stretch the yoke to tighten that up. Nowadays, you buy and install shims.

BARREL/CYLINDER GAP: 0.004" to 0.010".

CYLINDER/RECOIL SHIELD GAP: 0.060" to 0.068" for a non-recessed .38/.357.

TIMING: Cocking the hammer slowly single action, the cylinder stop should engage before the hammer reaches full cock. Slowly running double action, it should click in before the hammer falls.

OPENING: Start with each chamber at 12:00 and try to open the cylinder. If it hangs up, either the ejector rod is working loose and needs to be screwed back down (pre-1958 = right hand thread; post = left hand thread); or it's spinning out of round and needs straightening, or the front end isn't square and it's catching on one side - - from which you can usually see a mark. The inner rod should move forward to flush with the outer sleeve. Sometimes that outer sleeve needs a little filing on one side.

[shtur]

S&W revolver parts aren't breaking on a steady pace. Generally, it's when the parts are taken out to "improve them" without the knowledge of how to properly tune one.

S&W prices climbed with the creation of S&W forums on the internet, where established collectors saw new collectors willing to pay extra for older S&W's. Older S&W revolver prices on the forums climbed steadily up to mid 2023. The last 14 months, prices have come down on average models. I see .38 Special revolvers (K38, Mod 14, Mod 10) at pawn shops and lgs pretty often where I live in MT at better prices than any year previous.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The only smith and wesson they had was a 9mm semi auto, i do dont do semi autos because with my no line bifocals, the amount of movement makes it look like a baseball bat is coming at my face everytime the slide moves. Someone mentioned it looked sort of like a drunk cat walking around a rocking chair, the way i react to the slide movement.

>>>SNIP

welcome to the forum. I have bifocals, but can't use 'em for shooting. I had my optometrist make a pair of "single vision" prescription shooting glasses. These are similar to what they'd make for computer screen or reading glass, but the vocal point is out there at 25" or a little longer depending on your arm length. You want to see the front sight clearly.
.
As to S&W parts. nothing to worry about, tons of parts out there. Yeah, you can't get early parts from S&W anymore, but there is tons of parts on ebay or other vendors. My buddy just bought part of a 'collection' of NOS target hammers from a Gunshop who recently scored a large treasure trove of S&W parts from an estate (gunsmith passed away.)

[shooting on a shoestring]

Thom, BigSlug got most of it said in post 13. But do have a look at the first post on the sticky above called “Revolver Inspection the right way - aka -wheel gun 101”.

My opinion is you’re over-thinking this. I quit buying S&W K-frames several years ago because I saw so many good guns for good prices I got way more than I’ll ever have time to enjoy.

A decent K-Frame in 38 Special is a lifelong gun for a young man who shoots a lot. If you’re in bifocals you won’t live long enough to wear out a good K-Frame of any vintage. You won’t need parts. You will need more primers.

My preference is for shooter grade guns. They are the fun ones. I’ve got a couple of collector grade guns. I worry when I take them out. I’ve got plenty with a little bluing loss at the muzzles, some nicks on the grips, wonderfully smooth actions and super crisp single action triggers. They are pure joy to shoot. Small groups just seem to jump onto the target.

A good S&W 38 Special, some Bullseye, a wadcutter mold, set of dies and all the primers you can afford. Good shooting for life. The only way it could get any better is to toy around with the 32’s….or 44 Specials….or 45’s….

Just buy one!

[jrayborn]

Thom, BigSlug got most of it said in post 13. But do have a look at the first post on the sticky above called “Revolver Inspection the right way - aka -wheel gun 101”.

My opinion is you’re over-thinking this. I quit buying S&W K-frames several years ago because I saw so many good guns for good prices I got way more than I’ll ever have time to enjoy.

A decent K-Frame in 38 Special is a lifelong gun for a young man who shoots a lot. If you’re in bifocals you won’t live long enough to wear out a good K-Frame of any vintage. You won’t need parts. You will need more primers.

My preference is for shooter grade guns. They are the fun ones. I’ve got a couple of collector grade guns. I worry when I take them out. I’ve got plenty with a little bluing loss at the muzzles, some nicks on the grips, wonderfully smooth actions and super crisp single action triggers. They are pure joy to shoot. Small groups just seem to jump onto the target.

A good S&W 38 Special, some Bullseye, a wadcutter mold, set of dies and all the primers you can afford. Good shooting for life. The only way it could get any better is to toy around with the 32’s….or 44 Specials….or 45’s….

Just buy one!

HA HA! Go ahead, try to buy just one...

[FergusonTO35]

Many of the old cop guns look worn out due to finish wear but have actually been fired very little. My 1967 10-5 came from the estate of a cop and I would bet I have put 10x more rounds through it than he ever did. Mechanically, it was very tight and the internals showed only miniscule wear when I bought it. There is one just like it in a pawn shop nearby but of course they won't come off the price because it's "collectible". One retiree from the same agency told me that even after they transitioned to magnum revolvers they never authorized anything stronger than .38 +P ammo, which would mean those guns shouldn't suffer from the problems caused by a steady diet of magnums.

[jdgabbard]

A decent K-Frame in 38 Special is a lifelong gun for a young man who shoots a lot. If you’re in bifocals you won’t live long enough to wear out a good K-Frame of any vintage. You won’t need parts. You will need more primers.

Oh, they can be worn out! I'm just about to the point of needing to have a Model 65 rebuilt. Granted, it is an old Police Trade-In that I got back in the early 2000s. And I've shot tens of thousands of 38spl and magnum rounds out of it myself, along with however many 38spls and Magnum rounds were shot out it while in service. But currently the cylinder gap is up to the 0.010", which is considered the maximum for serviceability. But, it's also the one gun that made just about every trip to the range I've made over the last 20 some odd years. The cost to rebuild one at this stage is almost as much as the cost to just buy a new one. So it's probably going to get to enjoy retirement in the safe with the occasional outing. But you can in fact wear one out!

[rintinglen]

If the only issue is the excessive barrel cylinder gap, that is not a difficult repair, provided that one has the proper tools. One removes the barrel, shortens the shoulder by roughly .005, re-installs the barrel and cuts the breech face of the forcing cone to ~,005-.006. Then the forcing cone is recut. You need a padded vice, a frame wrench with appropriate insert, a lathe and one of Brownell's excellent forcing cone tool sets.

Before you do this, you should check the cylinder for end shake and correct that. It is a major pain in the butt to get the barrel back in, the barrel cylinder gap reset and then determine that you .002-.003" of end shake that will increase your gap when corrected. Most any decent revolver smith can do this (it's easiest on the older pinned barrels.) It can be done with hand tools, if you aren't afraid of the second coming before you get done.