357 mag and win 296

[nueces5]

Well, I have finally tried my new MP mold, https://www.mp-molds.com/product/359...ove-8-cav-alu/
very good mold, it is not difficult to produce many boolits in a short time
I have made them a layer of PC and left them for about 30 days before loading them, they weighed 175 grains, so their alloy is close to the Lyman No. 2
I loaded them with 13 grains of win 296, regular primers, and I have to say on my taurus 605 it was an angry mule
After 20 shots I didn't want to keep shooting.
I understand that win 296 is quite "special" with low loads, less than the minimum, are not recommended. But has anyone tried going below the minimum?
I would like to try 11 or 12 grains, to see if it is a more "hand-friendly" shot.
Needless to say, I didn't have good groups.

[Wheelguns 1961]

I have. Never again. I got delayed ignition on a couple rounds. The primer went off, and then about a second later, the round went off. It was kind of scary. I am very happy using 2400 for that application now.

[justindad]

Normally, I would recommend HS-6 in this scenario. However, I understand your location makes buying powder more challenging than mine. So, I wonder if seating your boolit deeply can help you reduce the charge without getting hang fires?

[racepres]

Huh!!I been using the second edition Lyman, pistol/revolver loading manual for pretty much the Duration..
Gas checked 358156 Boolits with 11.6 gr of 110 is starting load, and I use 12.0 grains for many Years..13 gr H110, is starting load for Plain base 358311... 13.6 is Plenty for Me! That same manual only goes to 168gr SWC's 358429, but that Boolit, seems to protrude well into the case, like the MP shown. So your Heavier, maybe longer boolit, Should certainly be Safe with the Listed Starting Load, of 11.8 grains...I would Not be seeing how Low I could go...but... based on muzzle velocity, as recorded by your Chronograph...Lyman showing 1037 fps on that 168, I'm betting 11.5 Grains is Not too low!!
In My Experience... H110/W296, always warn you when you get Low..if you sneak Down on it...I have Yet to stick a Boolit!!!! Maybe one day...Never Know!!!
FWIW, 4th Edition Lyman Cast, is showing the 180 grain cast Saeco, starting at 12.7 of H110,
The Early 2000's Hodgden Freeby, only lists Jacketed projectiles. 16.7 gr of H110, with 158's, and 13.5 of H110, with 170"s
While the 14th edition of the Free Winchester Loading pamphlet, Maybe mid '90's...Shows 14.5 grains of 296 used with 158 Lead, 14.3 grains, with jacketed 170's, and 12.4 and 200 grain lead...
Pick yer Poison I guess...

[357Mag]

nueces -

Howdy !

I have run the old Winchester minimum charge of 14.5gr WW296 under 158SWCs, and also under Lyman
SWCs of 160 - 172 gr. Accurate with them all.

I wouldn't recommend trying to go below the suggested minimum charge, on WW296.


With regards,
357Mag

[Dom]

I load a 183gr cast for my 357 using SR4756. 1019fps over my chrono from my 3" Bbl. Very controllable, no pain.. A very powerful load because of the bullet weight.

[DougGuy]

Don't download H110/W296 below minimum starting weight. Both are the same powder, made in the same plant, one badged for Winchester the other badged for Hodgdon. Load data can be interchanged.

What both like and will work well with, are load densities above 75% minimum, and preferably magnum primers.

May I suggest TILLMAN 1415 TOP GRAIN GOATSKIN driver's gloves? I am sure there is an Argentine equivalent if your welding supplier doesn't have them.

[racepres]

So...My loads from the 2nd edition Lyman Pistol/Revolver book are Unsafe???
Oddly I have had Zero Problems...and been thru a Bajillion rounds!!!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

>>>SNIP>>>
I loaded them with 13 grains of win 296, regular primers, and I have to say on my taurus 605 it was an angry mule
After 20 shots I didn't want to keep shooting.
I understand that win 296 is quite "special" with low loads, less than the minimum, are not recommended. But has anyone tried going below the minimum?
I would like to try 11 or 12 grains, to see if it is a more "hand-friendly" shot.
Needless to say, I didn't have good groups.

Here is why you don't want to go below Min published load. Win 296 is tough to ignite and doesn't burn completely until a certain pressure. That is why published data almost always specifies a Mag primer and a sturdy crimp. It burns better when the case is full...it doesn't like air space.
.
So, if I were to experiment, which I wouldn't do, I would measure case capacity with the boolit you want to use, seated as deeply as possible, then never go below 80% of that with 296...and I'd use a Mag Primer...and a sturdy crimp.
.
Now that I said that, there have been people who have reported Ka-Booms with reduced loads of 296. And of course lots of people dispute that event is due to low charge. I guess no one has recreated a Ka-Boom in a lab...so there is that. BUT, I do think it's possible the when the primer goes off and pushes the boolit out of the case and past the chamber...then a delayed powder ignition could create a Ka-Boom due to the boolit becoming a bore obstruction. That's my Opinion.

[Hick]

Well, I have finally tried my new MP mold, https://www.mp-molds.com/product/359...ove-8-cav-alu/
very good mold, it is not difficult to produce many boolits in a short time
I have made them a layer of PC and left them for about 30 days before loading them, they weighed 175 grains, so their alloy is close to the Lyman No. 2
I loaded them with 13 grains of win 296, regular primers, and I have to say on my taurus 605 it was an angry mule
After 20 shots I didn't want to keep shooting.
I understand that win 296 is quite "special" with low loads, less than the minimum, are not recommended. But has anyone tried going below the minimum?
I would like to try 11 or 12 grains, to see if it is a more "hand-friendly" shot.
Needless to say, I didn't have good groups.

That's why I only use 296 (or H110) for 357 Magnum loads in my 357 Magnum Rifle. In the revolver I use Titegroup or HP-38.

[Delkal]

W296 / H110 should only be used with a max load with no reduction. So that basically means just load to max with no reduction as long as the charge fits. The older manuals even had a specific warning for these powders that said start charges should only be max -3% and not the standard recommendation of -10%. Interestingly some of the newer manuals now list charges well under the minimum load which we were warned to not use.





Edit: While there is some disagreement between the earlier warning to not reduce more than 3% and the most current published loads you should use the newer book loads. If you are seeing low velocities, unburnt powder, or large spreads in velocities should you do careful research to determine if this load can be increased.

And all of these statements for W296 / H110 in a straight walled pistol case only. A full case of other pistol powders will probably blow up.

[charlie b]

175gn loads in a light snubby?? Yep, that will get your attention even if you went to +P .38 loads.

My old 605 was stamped on the barrel for 125gn max. When I used the lighter bullets it wasn't bad to shoot a few boxes. Still snappy, but, didn't hurt.

Later I had an SP101 snub and it handled 140gn full bore loads ok but the 158gn were tough on my hands.

I only download the .357 if my wife wants to shoot it. She normally is shooting full bore loads in her .45 light commander.

[nueces5]

Thank you all for the data, I think I will have to measure speed with this load to know where I am standing, although speed is not the best way to know the pressure, at least I have a parameter to monitor
I have 2400, there is no load data for 175 grain boolits on the alliant page, so if anyone has any data, I would be grateful. I estimate that the std load will be around 14 grains. I also have quite a longshot and some unique and power pistol. And a lot of win 231, but the 357 mag shines with 296 and h2400...

I have these grips on my old taurus
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1151387986
I think I could look at taking a piece of hardwood, and doing a good carving job. And make some more comfortable grips, I already make them for my knives, I don't think it will be that difficult for my old Taurus.
Something like that
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1151179565?pid=475687
Next time, I will use a protective glove, I have some mechanix that I use on my motorcycle, maybe they will help a little.

I attach a photo so you can see that I make a good crimp

[Sam Sackett]

W296 / H110 should only be used with a max load with no reduction. So that basically means just load to max with no reduction as long as the charge fits. The older manuals even had a specific warning for these powders that said start charges should only be max -3% and not the standard recommendation of -10%. Interestingly some of the newer manuals now list charges well under the minimum load which we were warned to not use.

But (famous last words) for a straight walled pistol cartridge reloading is simple. Fill whatever case you have to 100% so the powder touches or is slightly compressed by the bullet. This is usually the max recommended charge listed. If the velocity is more than you want find another powder.

Please don’t post this! What if someone had Bullseye or similar powder and took your advice. Definitely way too hot. Probably about a bomb going off in your hand.
Very unsafe to load a full case UNLESS that’s what the BOOK calls for!

Sam Sackett

[Delkal]

Please don’t post this! What if someone had Bullseye or similar powder and took your advice. Definitely way too hot. Probably about a bomb going off in your hand.
Very unsafe to load a full case UNLESS that’s what the BOOK calls for!

Sam Sackett

My advice was only for W296 / H110 and the well known warnings that charges with these powders should not be reduced. They have always been a special case powder and nothing like Bullseye or other faster burning pistol powders where you can definitely blow up.

But you are correct and there could be examples of my general straight walled case statement so I will edit it out.

[racepres]

Thank you all for the data, I think I will have to measure speed with this load to know where I am standing, although speed is not the best way to know the pressure, at least I have a parameter to monitor
I have 2400, there is no load data for 175 grain boolits on the alliant page, so if anyone has any data, I would be grateful. I estimate that the std load will be around 14 grains. I also have quite a longshot and some unique and power pistol. And a lot of win 231, but the 357 mag shines with 296 and h2400...

I have these grips on my old taurus
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1151387986
I think I could look at taking a piece of hardwood, and doing a good carving job. And make some more comfortable grips, I already make them for my knives, I don't think it will be that difficult for my old Taurus.
Something like that
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1151179565?pid=475687
Next time, I will use a protective glove, I have some mechanix that I use on my motorcycle, maybe they will help a little.

I attach a photo so you can see that I make a good crimp

Welp again...from the Lyman second edition load book for Revolvers and Pistols
the 168 grain SWC starts with 9.7 gr of 2400 and tops at 13.5 gr..

Interesting that in the TC section they go up to 204 gr RN 358315, and start it out with 12.0 gr of 2400, and top at 14.5
so I should think with yer 175 gr pills...these should be safe course...Sounds as if the H110/w296 data from Lyman is Not trusted by many... so.. I won't give that... But will say I have Never heard of Lyman data being "bad"
Sorry I did Not think to look at TC data earlier!!! Before I was Informed that I am the only one who uses this Data!!! Since the book was first published in 1994!!

[MT Gianni]

Nueces, I like the idea of new grips and padded gloves. You can cut the trigger finger off or all of them just past the knuckles and have a very functional glove.

Lyman cast #4 shows a starting charge of 9.7 gr of 2400 with a 168 gr bullet, max is 13.5 gr. With a 180 Saeco bullet again with 2400 starting load is11.1, max is 12.3.

[DougGuy]

My advice was only for W296 / H110 and the well known warnings that charges with these powders should not be reduced. They have always been a special case powder and nothing like Bullseye or other faster burning pistol powders where you can definitely blow up.

But you are correct and there could be examples of my general straight walled case statement so I will edit it out.

The point Sam is making is not to ASSUME you can load the case until the boolit won't go far enough down to seat when using H110/W296. That's 100% load density and using the available case length on top of the powder charge to determine if the boolit will seat is not safe reloading, it's filling the case to capacity. maybe some loads in the FA, Bowen or Linebaugh revolvers call for a full case of W296/H110 but I have never seen one specified to load to 100%.
__________________________________________________ _______________

As far as downloading either of these, there is also the possible scenario that powder laying along the case would present a much larger area for flame front and it could possibly ignite more powder than if the powder was taking up the whole case ID in front of the primer where it could only light off a certain amount of the powder at ignition. I don't know that this theory has been proven, but I remember much speculation about it.

[Bass Ackward]

“For me”, H110 / 296 is a hunting type powder only. And if you ever test primers, you will be amazed how you get ANY low SD with the lack of consistency from primer to primer. The colder it is, the worse the spread. And since I hunt in cold weather, I won’t use those powders in any cartridge ignited with a small pistol primer, magnum or not at ANY charge level.

[racepres]

The point Sam is making is not to ASSUME you can load the case until the boolit won't go far enough down to seat when using H110/W296. That's 100% load density and using the available case length on top of the powder charge to determine if the boolit will seat is not safe reloading, it's filling the case to capacity. maybe some loads in the FA, Bowen or Linebaugh revolvers call for a full case of W296/H110 but I have never seen one specified to load to 100%.
__________________________________________________ _______________

As far as downloading either of these, there is also the possible scenario that powder laying along the case would present a much larger area for flame front and it could possibly ignite more powder than if the powder was taking up the whole case ID in front of the primer where it could only light off a certain amount of the powder at ignition. I don't know that this theory has been proven, but I remember much speculation about it.

Not even Trail Boss Claims that...all other "stuff" tho..Trail Boss is reported to be Erratic/Dangerous if Compressed...IDK...I don't use much of it... 12oz has lasted Years!!!!!
While I would Not load 110/296 below recommended starting charges...I have continually loaded about .5 grains over By The Book, Minimum Loads.. If you get erratic velocities, or certainly Smoked Cases...you have gone too low!!! Probably due to "Not by the Book" Projectile!!