Winchester Model 94 Barrel Steel

[John22193]

Hello to all, I have three questions regarding a 1928 manufacture model 94 carbine I picked up yesterday. What year did Winchester improve the steel of their 94's to be stronger. And how did the Winchester 94's of this era handle the erosion of jacketed bullets. I mostly plan on shooting cast in it but it would be nice to know. I also was also curious on what methods people use to remove lightly rusted areas without damaging the bluing, this rifle has some rust that I would like to attempt to remove if it makes sense. Or at the vary least reduce and treat. My current plan is to use 0000 steel wool and some Ed's red and lightly rub the afflicted areas. Any thoughts or methods would be greatly appreciated.

Here are some pictures of they help

[Shawlerbrook]

Some prefer brass wool but I never had a problem using 0000 steel and Kroil. Also heard some say a true copper penny. As far as barrel erosion never heard of an issue. The 30 30 is not a super hi velocity round. Usually bore problems come from improper maintenance, black powder or corrosive primers.
Beautiful old 1894 !

[square butte]

I like oil on burlap for removing light rust without damaging finish - It's slower that steel wool but does not scratch

[John Taylor]

The nickel steel came out in 1895 for the 30-30. The early barrels were marked nickel steel. Most of the problems with the barrels was caused by corrosive primers.

[TNsailorman]

I found a product in Brownell's catalog years ago called IOSSO Gun Brite Polish that will remove rust without removing the blue. Actually seems to brighten the blue on my revolvers and rifles. A soft cloth to rub it on and a soft cloth to remove it, no chance of damage. james

[junkbug]

For rust I like Frontier 45 pads.

I believe Winchester switched from Nickel steel to Winchester Proof steel in the mid 1930’s. But that was more for the new high velocity cartridges that the Winchester Model 70 came in. Nickel steel was perfectly fine for the 30-30 Win, 30-40 Krag, and usually for the 30-06 Springfield. Corrosive priming was a bigger hazard

[John22193]

I never thought of the copper penny trick I’ll definitely give that a try on this gun and next time I’m at the hardware store this week I’ll see if they carry any brass wool.

The burlap method I’ve never heard of but I really like the sound of it because their is no chance of any damage I’ll try that out on the receiver where it’s just a light amount of rust.

And I didn’t know that the steel for the barrels was good from that early on. Out of curiosity you said the nickel steel came out in 1895 for the 30-30. Was nickel steel also used for the 32 win special and the 38-55 model 94’s of the time period or were they something different?

And does the IOSSO polish does that remove the rust completely or will it leave a rust patina. I don’t mind some rust patinas in fact sometimes they look nice or show the rifles age well. And would I use the polish in only affected areas or would it be best to use it on all of the exterior metal in order to keep the finish looking even and not inconsistent?

By chance are the frontier 45 pads a different name for chore boy? Because I saw in an article, I forget where, about how it performs similar to 0000 steel wool is that an accurate statement? And the model 70 I inherited from my great grandfather is Proof steel so that’s good to know.

[Hick]

I have one book that says the barrels were nickel steel from about 1896 until 1933, except for some odd experimental materials in the early 1920's and some special order stainless steel barrels later on (but--I should add that I have found some evidence the 'expert' who wrote this book knows a heck of a lot about the different physical details of Win 94's but isn't very smart about materials information).

[FergusonTO35]

Far as I know, the .30-30 rifles always used a stronger grade of steel than those chambered in the older, originally blackpowder cartridges (.38-55, .32-40, etc.). I would shoot the rifle with cast and see how wello it does before I got too crazy about cleaning it. There may be some pitting which is filled by copper fouling, and removing it could make things worse. I've never had trouble shooting cast out of any .30-30 if I simply gave the bore a good scrubbing with bronze brushes and regular Hoppe's beforehand.

[Kestrel4k]

Having used a fair bit of the Big45 product, I would recommend it over other methods.

At the risk of going on a limb here, I'm going to label the 0000 steel wool method as obsolete, and here's why:

This method has been used with success with original, US-mfg steel wool - which was of high quality.

However, modern China-mfg steel wool is of much lower grade, and contains significant steel slag inclusions (i.e. Fe2O3).
This has been fully documented on other forums by a very highly respected contributor NoREMF.
These slag inclusions are much harder and /will/ scratch the finish of our steels.

[ATCDoktor]

This gentleman (Mark from The Cinnabar) does a very good job of covering Winchester barrel materials using vintage barrels and Rockwell hardness tester.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJJgqtdkKnc

I found this very interesting.

[gwpercle]

Copper pennies will have a date of 1981 or earlier up to the steel pennies of WWII .
In 1982 in October the mint went to pennies made of zinc ... or at least Not copper .

I tried the copper penny rust removal but had better results with Turtle Wax Chrome Polish and Rust Remover ... follow the directions , go slow and do it by hand with a cloth ... my Model 58 S&W ( it's my avatar) came out Amazingly clean and with a wax job ... it looked Great !
Gary

[farmbif]

I have one of those that was found in an attic of a florida home for decades. it had rusty blotches all over it. lots of scrubbing with several different kinds of oil and fine steel wool.
the 0000 steel wool coated in oil with hours of work over a few weeks did not seem to remove any blueing and tamed the rust. scrubbed the bore with brass cleaning brush and lots of hoppes gun oil and then No9 and regular patches.. it shoots and functions just fine and is one of my cherished old and ugly guns. yours doesn't look all that bad at all compared to the attic find. the steel of these winchesters seems to be much better quality than ruger used in the early M77's I have one of those left in a barn way too long and the bull barrel has rust pits in the outside some almost the size of a bb. but the bore is clean and its still good and accurate

[John22193]

Interesting on the time line of nickel steel barrels thank you that helps a lot with future purchases and added knowledge to the repertoire.

I shot the rifle today with some cast loads and with some of the cast loads it was very accurate at 30 yards free standing. I’ll take your advice and not try to mess with the barrel it too much since it’s already shooting well I’ll just end up cleaningThe exterior and some internals if they need it.

And I’ve got to say I never knew about newer Chinese steel wool having the slag in it I will certainly remember that for the future. Fortunately, from my grandfather and my great grandfather I think I have 5 bundles of 0000 stool wool that is very old and is made in America. I will certainly value it more now.

The video was intriguing I didn’t know that Nickel steel and proof steel were only 4 units away from each other in hardness. And it was also good to learn that for the 1892’s they were all mild steel barrels unless specified otherwise. I can also agree it was very interesting.

I do recall my learning a long time ago from my great grandfather that the pre 1982 one cent coins were 95 ish percent copper and that apparently if you rub a copper penny on a bee stung it’ll help calm it down. Whether it works or not I’m not sure I never had one when I could use it. And how does the wax handle the heat of the barrel getting warm does it tend to soften and pick up dirt and grime on the outside of the weapon?

And I have got to say that is a very neat find in the attic. It’s encouraging to hear that yours cleaned up nicely. And it is certainly intriguing that the steel on your m77 was so active. But it sounds like it is a good shooter.


Thanks to all for the information, advice, and the stories. They helped a great deal.

[john.k]

Winchester used 3% nickle steel up to the 1933 bankruptcy,and Olins takeover ...................after that they used ordnance barrel steel...........Incidentally,3% nickle steel was much used in car and truck gearboxes pre 1940,when nickle use was restricted due to the war effort.

[BoBSavage]

All Winchester Model 94' rifles had the stronger steel barrels

The Confusion
It would appear that during the early smokeless powder transition years, there was some real fuss and confusion between the low-powered rifle shooters and the high-powered rifle shooters....very much the same as today. There was certainly talk about the powders, velocities and pressures to be used, as well as the use of the Special Steel Barrels.

During this time there was grandpa's black powder cartridges, the son's new smokeless powder replacements and the grandkids new fangled high-powered Winchester 30-30 and the Savage 303! In between the fuss of those two, were the "middle of the roaders"...black powder cartridges that were now offered with smokeless... and the confusion began!

Much talk about all of this in the old 1899 through 1920's magazines, books, articles...especially about burning out the bores...you know the spill! From what can be found, the two most popular mentioned cartridges for this argument were the 32-40 and 38-55 cartridges...not the 30-30. Not only was the 38-55 loaded with black powder, it was also loaded with low-pressure smokeless and high-pressure smokeless powders....thus the confusion was real...even back then.

The Powders
The 38-55 loaded with black powder could be used in any barrel. The Low-Pressure, "bulk for bulk" smokeless powder 38-55 loads could also be used in the black powder barrels. The reason was the "bulk for bulk" low-pressure powders burned cooler and the velocities slower than the high-pressured powders, thus safe (or at least "Safer") for the soft steel barrels. The problem began when folks tried to use the high-pressure "dense" powders (30 cal smokeless powders like WA30 or Dupont 30 cal). The heat generated would certainly burn the riffling over time.....or could blow the chamber or barrel of the softer steel types.. Some say 3,000 rounds is what it took to burn out the bore, but even then, diminishing only mere inches per groups. Nevertheless, eventually the hotter burning powders would certainly cause the rifling to wear away and even powders like Sharpshooter were still corrosive on the bores of the softer steel over time.

The Heat and Pressures Generated
In 1900, A. H. Stillwell speaks of the 30-30, 45-70, and the 38-55 on using such new smokeless powders. He also speaks of using high-pressure powder and splitting the barrels, rather than using the correct low-pressure smokeless powders for those weaker arms. He then follows up and says; “Everything considered, a black powder gun with low-pressure smokeless is good enough for me.”

Winchester boasted on the use of THEIR MAKE of cartridges being safe for the 38-55 soft steel barrels... and now you know the reason why!

By 1905, Smokeless Powders were divided in two classes, low and high pressure. The first named being mostly used in old black powder cartridges, the latter for cartridges of the military and "high power" hunting types. Aside from black powder, most folks just getting over the fact that the new smokeless powder was also divided into two classes, “bulk for bulk” (Dupont No.2 types) and “dense” (Laflin & Rand .30-cal. types), both equaling the strength of a black powder charge but one being "bulk for bulk", and one being much less than bulk…. but yet both are safe for black powder firearms. Although both were safe for the soft steel barrels, the dense powders like Sharpshooter and Lightning were a bit corrosive.

Generally, for rifles, anything larger than .32 cal. was basically a bulk for bulk while anything smaller than a .32 cal. was a less bulk for bulk, or what was called “dense”. Aside from shooting jacketed bullets and large quantities of smokeless shots fired in the soft steel barrels, smokeless powder was plenty safe for use in black powder arms. The concerns below involve high pressure vs low pressure and the confusion thereof. Thus, by early 1900’s definitions, we must divide these pressures into at least two groups.

The division of smokeless powder could be divided into the following two classes.

• Low Pressure – anything below, say…30,000cup
• High Pressure – anything above, say…30,000cup

Just because a particular load may say “low pressure” doesn’t mean it is safe for the weaker barrels, weaker manufactured arms…but at the same time, smokeless powder itself is not unsafe to use in soft steel black powder barrels either.

Further down the pages we find this High Velocity/Low Pressure data while speaking about special sights…

“These cartridges are especially designed for use in rifles originally built to use black powder only.”

Marlin's Barrels
1904
Western Field
The Sportsman’s Magazine of the West · Volume 4

“SOME NEW MARLIN DEPARTURES.

Interesting announcement comes from The Marlin Fire Arms Co., New Haven, Conn. concerning a new line of goods the company is marketing this season, which will attract wide attention among a large class of sportsmen and lovers of the rifle.

The company is now arranging a line of their famous repeating rifles, Model 1893, to be known among the trade Grade “B”. These rifles will be in every respect the same as the regular Model 1893 with the exception that the barrels will be made of the highest obtainable grade of soft gun barrel steel instead of their “Special Smokeless Steel”. The intention is to meet the large demand for a high-class, carefully made arm on the part of many shooters who are not sufficiently interested in the smokeless steel barrels to pay for the extra cost. The new line is, of course, not intended for high power smokeless ammunition and its use in this grade is not advised by the makers: only black powder ammunition and equivalent loads such as low power smokeless should be used. The 32-40 and 38-55 sizes only will be made in this grade.

What is High Power Smokeless Ammunition?

• High Power - greater than 1,750fps - Although not always stamped on the barrel, special steel barrels needed (bore wear issues, not strength issues), 30-30, .303 Savage and the high power loaded 32-40 and 38-55 loads.

In General - 1895 Smokeless Cartridges, Popularity

• Military - 30-40 Krag (30 Army), (40gr smokeless powder)
• Military - 303 Britiish (40gr smokeless powder), (NOT THE SAME AS THE 303 Savage)
• Civilian - 30-30 Winchester (30gr smokeless powder)
• Civilian - 303 Savage (30gr smokeless powder) (NOT THE SAME AS THE 303 British)(1895 shows a barrel elastic strength up to 60,000lbs. with a barrel and breeching mechanism which are made to resist a tensile strength of 100,000 pounds to the square inch

By 1905, Smokeless Powders were divided in two classes, low and high pressure. The first named being mostly used in old black powder cartridges the latter for cartridges of the military type.

1. Black Powder - Low Pressure
2. Smokeless Powder - Low and High Pressures

a. Low Pressure - maybe less than 30,000 lbs. "Bulk for Bulk" powders and some "Bulky" dense powders
b. High Pressure - greater than at least 30,000 lbs. slower burning rifle powders, WA-30, Lightning, .30-Cal smokeless

Sporting Smokeless Powders were also divided into two general classes ~ "Nitrocellulose Industry" by Edward Chauncey Worden, 1911

• Bulk - "Sharpshooter" (not bulk for bulk, and loaded by weight not volume) The Nitrocellulose has been produced in sufficiently light and porous loose granulars by mechanical means so that in equal volumes they possess about the same ballistics as black powder.
• Condensed - Represents the maximum of propulsive force in the minimum of space...prepared in the same manor as the military flake powder. Condensed smokeless powders designed for the more modern rifles. [1911]

By 1918, Townsand Whelen noted some nomenclatures....

• Small Bore - .35 cal. and smaller
• Large Bore - larger than .35 cal.
• Low Power - up to 1,750fps - although some velocities and pressures not suitable for weak design rifles. 38 and.44 "Winchester High Velocity" / "Low Pressure" loads fits into this category, and does not change this designation.
• High Power - greater than 1,750fps - Although not always stamped on the barrel, special steel barrels needed (bore wear issues, not strength issues), 30-30, .303 Savage and the high power loaded 32-40 and 38-55 loads.
• High Intensity - Velocity greater than 2,400fps, - 30-40 Krag (30 Army), .30 cal. 1903 (30-03), .30 cal. 1906 (30-06), etc.

[ascast]

bobsavage - nice post ! FWIW, my uncle was a huge gun trader years ago now deceased. He once said Marlin barrels held up much better than Winchester. Anecdotal to be sure, but he handled 100's of them over 70 plus years. worth $0.02 ?

[fordwannabe]

One other option I have not seen mentioned is use the rim end of an old cartridge case as a way to remove stubborn rust patches.

[gumbo333]

Rust removal, mix ATF and diesel (or kerosene) 50/50. Use non-synthetic ATF. Scrub with blue denim, your old jeans.

[BoBSavage]

bobsavage - nice post ! FWIW, my uncle was a huge gun trader years ago now deceased. He once said Marlin barrels held up much better than Winchester. Anecdotal to be sure, but he handled 100's of them over 70 plus years. worth $0.02 ?

Thanks!!