Noobie BP loading question

[schofieldbob]

I've loaded some BP cartridges for my 38-55 and new 40-65 CPA. I've read confusing and conflicting instructions. Some info says load enough with a drop tube to touch the bottom of the bullet using a .30 card and Goex doesn't like to be compressed more tham 1/8th of an inch. Others say fill it up and compress. My load for the 40-65 is 51 gr of OE 1 1/2 the compresses about 9/16 of an inch using a 400 gr Snover bullet from Montana Bullet. Is there a right way to do this? Thanks

[indian joe]

I've loaded some BP cartridges for my 38-55 and new 40-65 CPA. I've read confusing and conflicting instructions. Some info says load enough with a drop tube to touch the bottom of the bullet using a .30 card and Goex doesn't like to be compressed more tham 1/8th of an inch. Others say fill it up and compress. My load for the 40-65 is 51 gr of OE 1 1/2 the compresses about 9/16 of an inch using a 400 gr Snover bullet from Montana Bullet. Is there a right way to do this? Thanks

my take (other much more experts here might agree or not) both calibres you have are not "plinker" rounds - they re capable of fine accuracy at extended distance

1) use a drop tube - easy to make
2) I have never loded OE and Idont mind compression but 9/16 sounds like a lot
3) maybe I misread but please DONT use your boolit for compression - get a die, make a die, use a neck expander screwed into an upside down die body .....just dont squish the boolit out of shape compressing the charge
4) bench your rifle for group at 100 yards and let the target tell the end story

[Remmy4477]

What indian joe says!

9/16, way too much compression!

I load both a 45-70 and a 44-40 with goex ffg, I use a drop tube, mines 30 inches long, and I keep my compression at 1/8th an inch on both.
With the 45-70 I place a plastic wad over the powder and seat the bullet, with the wad and 1/8th powder compression no bullet deformation at the base.
With the 44-40, no wad is used to compress the charge, at 1/8th compression the bullet is fine.

Been loading both of these calibers like this since the early 90's and for me they work well, I can get long strings of shooting before I foul out and need to wipe the barrel, accuracy has been great.

But keep in mind what works for me might not work for you or anyone else. Shooting BP is a guessing game and trial and error till you find a technique that works for your rifle.
That's part of the fun!

[country gent]

Start at no airspace no compression. This is the base point and work up in 1 grn increments from there as the charge and compression increases you will see accuracy improve and fouling will drop become more manageable. If you can chronograph these loads you will see standard deviation, and extreme spreads drop. I normally use a .060 napa rubber fiber wad and 2 tracing paper wads between bullet and powder. Compress with a die separate of the bullet.

[schofieldbob]

Sorry. as usual I didn't elaborate enough. I do use a drop tube. The load i got for the 40-65 is from Mike Ventuino's and the SPG book. I do use a compression die. Thanks for the responses. I use an expander plug and hand seat the bullet.

[Lead pot]

Bob,

I don't shoot a .38-55 but I have a .38-50 Hepburn that is close to the .38-55. This caliber seams to shoot pretty consistently with any loads I use in it.

Here is what the Country Gent ( I would like to see you at Alma MI sometime ) is referring to with the 1 grain incremental loads. I call them ladder loads.
I start using a 3 shot group starting with no compression with a .06" wad on the powder with the bullet on the wad and I increase toe load by 1 grain. You will find a null (a tight group) some where along the way. Usually 21 loads from zero compression to max.
Then I might do it again but I will check what primer will work best. (center target) the 2-1/2 is a Remington pistol primer. And the final test will usually be a 10 shot group like the right target but usually more shots
Usually you find the best accuracy using the OE or Swiss powder with low compression and you will see from zero to max where there are good loads showing. You just have to load test loads to find what works best in your rifle. I have several rifles with the same caliber that show different results with the same loads.
I dont have a long range so 200 yards is my test range and I use a 2" sticker that I can see well at 200 with a 8X DZ scope.
All this seems like a lot of shooting it is but it also gives you good time behind the buttplate learning your rifle. When I can keep 10 shots in a round pattern like #3 I feel it will do it's best at a match for me.
BOB, Look up Dick Savage. He lives in in the Hills. He will get you going.

Kurt

[Gunlaker]

9/16" is a ton of compression!

Don't worry about what a few people on the internet tell you about certain powders not liking compression. This used to be a common thing people said about Swiss. Since then many of us have shot excellent scores while ignoring that "wisdom". Let the rifle decide how much compression is right. With most powders you will likely be happy somewhere between 0.1" and 0.3" compression. At least that has been what has worked well for me on average with Swiss, OE, & plain Goex powders.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

9/16" is a ton of compression!

Don't worry about what a few people on the internet tell you about certain powders not liking compression. This used to be a common thing people said about Swiss. Since then many of us have shot excellent scores while ignoring that "wisdom". Let the rifle decide how much compression is right. With most powders you will likely be happy somewhere between 0.1" and 0.3" compression. At least that has been what has worked well for me on average with Swiss, OE, & plain Goex powders.

Chris.

This is true Chris.
The largest variances usually show up when the cases are not consistent. Neck tension and inside volume is very important to keep consistent. I would rate neck tension being the biggest factor. It raises chamber pressure between light and heavy tension causing vertical.

[schofieldbob]

Thanks, again. Lead Pot I'm familiar with Dick, we shot together in the Winter time down in AZ. He was a big help, I ruined my shoulder and gave up my 45-70 and didn't shoot for a couple of years, but have a new shoulder and getting back into it again. I've loaded lots of smokeless over the years, but am intrigued by Black Powder.

[indian joe]

This is true Chris.
The largest variances usually show up when the cases are not consistent. Neck tension and inside volume is very important to keep consistent. I would rate neck tension being the biggest factor. It raises chamber pressure between light and heavy tension causing vertical.

LP I dont neck size but curious anyway

do you reckon the "light and heavy tension causing vertical" must necessarily pair with velocity spread OR can it still happen when we have low chrono ES number???

I am a simple thinker - figures if we have consistent low velocity spread they all must land in the same place if only we can point em there.

[Gunlaker]

I often get the lowest ES & the lowest vertical with just a little neck tension. Cases annealed and expanded with a custom expander 0.001" under bullet diameter. But I have some that shoot very well with slip fit, but only if the fired cases hold the bullet with no wiggle at all.

One thing that I believe is the cause of too much vertical for many people is inconsistent holding. If you hold the rifle loose one shot, and tight the next, you'll get very different vertical on the target. The low bullet speed, long barrel time, and relatively heavy recoil make these rifles harder to shoot than bolt gun at targets. Inconsistencies are magnified greatly with poor hold and follow through.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Joe,
I don't use a chrono often anymore, I let the holes in the paper tell me if I'm on the right track. it's a combination of several things. What Chris said about the control of the rifle will open the string also.
I shot a lot of bench rest in my younger days with rifles that a 3" diameter barrel that would mule ear a sand bag that were that heavy and I would shoot with free recoil with just my finger on the trigger and thumb on the trigger guard and set it off with just a gentle squeeze this would eliminate a lot of holding issues and when I would see the group open up I would mark the case and when I got home I did some measuring to see what changed and most generally I would find the case neck longer. I also use neck tension using a taper crimp die when I load now for black powder but back shooting BR I did not and what I found checking the marked brass it was usually a couple thousands long and some of the necks where thinner. The long cases I saw looking through the mag glass the mouth chamfer was slightly rolled in.
All of my brass was exact with the inside capacity I weight with a fine ball powder and not water. Water will stay behind changing the weight. The case neck wall thickness and the shell was never sized again after the first shot fired. When the shoulder gets pushed thickening the neck pressure changes and so will straight wall shells.
But the biggest problem comes using a scoped rifle. This is where what Chris is getting too. Poor control of the stock and the parallax is not properly set will throw shots all over the place. Irons is more an eye fatigue from spending too much time looking through the sights. BREATHING CONTROL !!! keeps the lamps burning bright using the irons

And there are other factors. You just have to spend time with the rifle. It's not just one thing that affects the groups.

Kurt

[indian joe]

Joe,
I don't use a chrono often anymore, I let the holes in the paper tell me if I'm on the right track. it's a combination of several things. What Chris said about the control of the rifle will open the string also.
I shot a lot of bench rest in my younger days with rifles that a 3" diameter barrel that would mule ear a sand bag that were that heavy and I would shoot with free recoil with just my finger on the trigger and thumb on the trigger guard and set it off with just a gentle squeeze this would eliminate a lot of holding issues and when I would see the group open up I would mark the case and when I got home I did some measuring to see what changed and most generally I would find the case neck longer. I also use neck tension using a taper crimp die when I load now for black powder but back shooting BR I did not and what I found checking the marked brass it was usually a couple thousands long and some of the necks where thinner. The long cases I saw looking through the mag glass the mouth chamfer was slightly rolled in.
All of my brass was exact with the inside capacity I weight with a fine ball powder and not water. Water will stay behind changing the weight. The case neck wall thickness and the shell was never sized again after the first shot fired. When the shoulder gets pushed thickening the neck pressure changes and so will straight wall shells.
But the biggest problem comes using a scoped rifle. This is where what Chris is getting too. Poor control of the stock and the parallax is not properly set will throw shots all over the place. Irons is more an eye fatigue from spending too much time looking through the sights. BREATHING CONTROL !!! keeps the lamps burning bright using the irons

And there are other factors. You just have to spend time with the rifle. It's not just one thing that affects the groups.

Kurt

thanks Kurt (and Chris too)
my main attention is my 45/75 Uberti
...that rifle is neat in the neck so is close to where Chris would like (I think) boolits are a nice smooth slip fit - no wiggle wobble at all. I crimp enough to keep things secure in the loading / feeding process.

I have had several 10 shot strings give me single digit ES number and had kind of assumed from there on in it was on me ....
The rifle is still inclined to walk shots vertical but I am still convinced its mechanical - magazine to barrel tie up, forend fit, theres a few things can mess up a long magazine lever gun.

Most of my group shooting done at 100yards - walk out the door - stop but is up near the workshop - dig em out of the mound - make me own powder - all I am out is a primer and time. I dont clean between shots -, maybe if I did that would sort the stringing issue because if I am really strict with shot cadence it goes away .

Dunno how many times I have settled down to the bench - cranked off a nice three shotter - wandered up for a closer look - came back and let rip another two or three and its near aways a nice cluster but 30 - 40 mm away from the previous one - thats inconsistent setup/hold eh?

I never shot bench rest - in smokless days I was primarily a hunter/ pest destruction - 22/250 loaded full - I would lean out the window of my lil Subaru Brumby and three inside an inch and right on the money ---good to go -- if you couldnt do it any time you tried - better fix that.

Always had the highest regard for fellers (not me) that could shoot good standing and used to say "any fool can shoot off a rest with a scoped rifle", over the years it dawned on me that many fools cant (still a bit of a puzzle that) and a year into competition muzzleloaders I wasnt doin so bad offhand and iron sights - so at age 42 I became competent at something had eluded me from the age of ten ..........................

The offhand stuff has been really interesting - I read and read stories of Danial Boone in shooting matches - he would stroll up to the mark with his rifle at the trail, settle his stance, rifle up, a slight hesitation and shot gone -- first time I read this there were people telling "son you dont have to shoot offhand you're allowed a rest, another why so much of a hurry? then they dug his ball out of the centre of the cross and declared it a fluke !

I practiced and practiced with those long barrelled rifles - every time I would bring the gun to bear it would hang still with the sights right dead centre - then - then - it starts to wobble and wander - I reckon this is left brain defeating right brain - I never worked it enough to get that shot away smooth while it was hanging centre. I could see what they were talking about and, how it should work, if you mastered it would be amazing offhand .....but - ends up pulling the shot ---no smoth .........

[Lead pot]

Joe,

I started down the road back in 1954 shooting black powder and it has been my first choice but the .222 and the .22 hornet as well as the little ,22 short before the powder rifles. I shot pigeons in mid flight and shot 1/2 dollars out of the air and took a hammer pounding out the dent and bought a couple boxes of .22 shorts with it. LOL.
I shoot dirty when I go to the range shooting a bowling pin hanging on a length of #9 wire at 200 yards off hand but I miss more then I hit anymore. I still favor my flint lock and the St-Louis pains rifle, they have filled my freezer for many years. In time we all get old, but I may look old but I'm still only 26 LOL.
We all will pull a shot but I didn't do it.....OL Henry the Gremlin did it for me
Hey, Stay well.

Kurt

[Lead pot]

These hunting rifles that hold a special place with me.

[indian joe]

Joe,

I started down the road back in 1954 shooting black powder and it has been my first choice but the .222 and the .22 hornet as well as the little ,22 short before the powder rifles. I shot pigeons in mid flight and shot 1/2 dollars out of the air and took a hammer pounding out the dent and bought a couple boxes of .22 shorts with it. LOL.
I shoot dirty when I go to the range shooting a bowling pin hanging on a length of #9 wire at 200 yards off hand but I miss more then I hit anymore. I still favor my flint lock and the St-Louis pains rifle, they have filled my freezer for many years. In time we all get old, but I may look old but I'm still only 26 LOL.
We all will pull a shot but I didn't do it.....OL Henry the Gremlin did it for me
Hey, Stay well.

Kurt

good stuff!!!
the tone of your post yells 26 -----26 is a really good number for me - major life altering things happened that year - got a whole bunch of things done, that as I looked back later I realised were impossible - just dumb luck I didnt know that at the time.

Shot my first black powder about 1966 in a 32/20 winchester feecd problems with smokeless (boolits going back indside the case) stuff down under was difficult to get and expensive - this was nothing that couldnt be fixed with a good set of modern dies

My Dad brought the powder back from Sydney - strolled onto the DC3 with 5 x 1 pound bottles of good blackpowder in his carryon briefcase (coming home from a farmers convention) ----imagine doing that now - you'd be locked up so tight never see the sun again!!!!!

You're a way better wing shot than me - I hit a penny once in the air - we were throwing it with the trigger hand, gun at port arms with lever shut and chamber empty - finally got a good hit - that penny is still pride of place in my loading room - I quit after that - quit while you/re ahead eh! (no way I woulda bashed that one flat - big ole english penny too not one of your little dinky thumbnail sized ones )

I think I have had the most fun shooting a flintlock but keep circling back to the cowboy guns too - like shooting a flinter in a percussion event - its an edge - they all think you're handicapped but a gun I built to fit me, accurate, good custom open sights on that long barrel -----what handicap???

keep grinnin and keep sayin 26 ................