17 fireball from .223

[EMT480]

Would love to hear from some case forming gurus. I had a simple process for forming 17 fireball from 223. I cannot for the life of me remember what I did. My guru mentor is no longer with us. I need to form some brass and unfortunately have sacrificed many to the brass gods. I have picked up additional dies to attempt what I have seen others write about with minimal success. I have the redding 221 form die 1. 17 from 221 form die 1, 17 form and trim. The 17 dies i just got. My previous process did not include these. If anyone could help me out It would be greatly appreciated.

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[M-Tecs]

What part of the case is causing issues? If the shoulder is collapsing my first question would be are you annealing. If you are stop until the neck and shoulder are fully sized.

[EMT480]

Collapsing at the shoulder. No they have not been annealed yet.

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[15meter]

Go slow, into the die a 1/16", then back out, rotate the case 15-20 degrees then back into the dies another 1/16". Repeat until the shoulder is pushed back to where it needs to be.

Use a good lubricant, I use the traditional Imperial sizing lube.

I've done .223 to .221 Fireball, never to the .17. Good luck.

For the final set back of the shoulder you may want to grind .005-.010" off the top of a shell holder to set the shoulder back enough to get it to chamber.

I've had to do this on a number of conversions. After first firing you should be able to use an unground shell holder.

Slow is a key concept, you have to give the brass time to "flow", for lack of a better term.

May try initial forming with full length .223 dies, then .221 Fireball seater dies if you have them. Seater dies are usually a bit larger than size dies.

[gc45]

15 meter is correct but you MUST anneal brass maybe more than once. I made many 17 and 20 cases from 223 to both 221-FB, 20-VarTarg, 20 Duster, 19-Duster, and 17 Mach4; also made hundreds and hundreds 17-AH and 19-AH cases all back when I was shooting varmints. Annealing is your best friend especially if using fired brass. I always anneal first before starting the size process. Slow and easy is the way to go and many guys have their own process but take your time and find the one that works for you; once you get a process that works they go pretty fast without ruining cases. For annealing whithout to much expense, I found an old used record player at the thrift store then useing an angel food cake pan upside down then place a 223 case on top of a large flat washer and with the player on slow speed turn the case while holding the bernzomatic flame against the neck shoulder area until it just begins to show red. lOTS OF RED IS TO MUCH! Adjust the flame down, your don't want to much heat, just a small blueish tip is all. DO NOT OVER ANNEAL! In my shop, I turned off the lights to better see the flame color, with a small lamp on at the end of the room, just enought light to see what I'm doing. Must have done many thousands of cases over the years of varmint shooting and for several caibers, brass lasts forever as I just neck size brass once fire formed. If using something besides a bolt rifle you will need to push the shoulders back often otherwise chambering can be an issue. If using an old Low Wall, cadet action or the like, cases need more sizing to both chamber and extract easily. Just play around at first, see what works for your rifle. For fire forming I just loaded my cases with reduced powder charges of the same powder I planned on using and went shooting. Most cases shoot just fine with good accuracy, then reload with higher charges after neck sizing. Example: my 17AH shoots best with very close to case full of 1680 and 20-25 grain V Max, I reduced by 2 grains for fire forming and many a praire dog met his demise with this loading. Good Luck

[BK7saum]

I posted my process somewhere on here a while back. I do not have any of the form dies and was using 1x fired winchester brand 223 brass.

I sized to 221 and neck turned for diameter befire sizing to 17. (Eliminates the donut) I annealed somewhere but do not remember where in the process.

Cases capacity is reduced so work up loads accordingly.

[EMT480]

I posted my process somewhere on here a while back. I do not have any of the form dies and was using 1x fired winchester brand 223 brass.

I sized to 221 and neck turned for diameter befire sizing to 17. (Eliminates the donut) I annealed somewhere but do not remember where in the process.

Cases capacity is reduced so work up loads accordingly.

That is very similar to the process I used previously. I didn't have the fancy dies until recently. I just can't remember to save my bacon what I did. Annealing and neck turning was in there somewhere!

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[15meter]

I would try annealing after the major set back of the shoulder. You can try annealing as a first step, but I think you'll find crumpled shoulders if annealed first.

Try it both ways, I just never had luck forming cases that required shoulder set back with annealed cases. A couple of times when necking up annealing first was required.

My rule of thumb has been anneal first if necking up, anneal after if necking down/shorter.

Works for me.

[EMT480]

I would try annealing after the major set back of the shoulder. You can try annealing as a first step, but I think you'll find crumpled shoulders if annealed first.

Try it both ways, I just never had luck forming cases that required shoulder set back with annealed cases. A couple of times when necking up annealing first was required.

My rule of thumb has been anneal first if necking up, anneal after if necking down/shorter.

Works for me.

I do recall after annealing first and then sizing i crumpled the case good and decided that is not the way! I thought after I FL sized the 223 I ran it through the 221 die cut almost to length neck turned then into 17 fb FL size die trimmed to length and then annealed. So far that hasn't worked.

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[BK7saum]

Remember you can use seating die bodies for forming as well. the necks in seating dies are sometimes several thousandths larger than the FL sizing die.

I would try...
223 sized without expander(neck is smallest diameter)
221 fireball seater
221 fireball sizer
expand and neck turn
size to 17 FB (seater)
size to 17 FB in FL sizer.

Not sure where to anneal, just trial and error.

I know that sizer bodies aren't usually well polished, but mine have been smooth enough to do the occasional sizing for forming.

[EMT480]

Thanks for all the tips and tricks you guys have provided. Not having a 221 rem I did not have those dies. Just so happens there was a gun show today and i grabbed some. This is what I tried and it works like a champ.

lake city range brass
cleaned with stainless media
sizing process

1. redding 221 form die #1
2. 221 rem seating die stem removed
3 221 FL sizing die. stem removed
4 redding 17 Mach iv form die #1
5 redding 17 Mach iv form and trim die this step requires extended shell holder
6. I mark the trim location while it's still in the die. then use my handy dandy harbor freight mini chop saw
7. neck turn
8. FL resize in 17 rem fireball stem insterted
9. trim to final length.

I will play around and see what I can fine tune. This process works really well. Having a turret press is also a huge help. Doing this on my Jr. would be a pain in the butt. I still need to anneal the cases. They are to short for my annealeze machine. I will have to use one of my other methods.

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[Iowa Fox]

I have made a lot of 17 Mach 1V from once fired 223 or 5.56 range pick up brass just to practice on. Never lost a case even with the junk brass. Good lube and good dies.
Grumpa formed a lot of hard to form brass so I asked him what lube he used for the really hard squeeze. He used 50 lanolin/50 vaseline. I miss that old guy.

[M-Tecs]

I would try cutting the brass to length before any forming is done.

[EMT480]

I have made a lot of 17 Mach 1V from once fired 223 or 5.56 range pick up brass just to practice on. Never lost a case even with the junk brass. Good lube and good dies.
Grumpa formed a lot of hard to form brass so I asked him what lube he used for the really hard squeeze. He used 50 lanolin/50 vaseline. I miss that old guy.

I've had good luck with imperial. It's all I use anymore for the majority of my stuff. If I fire up my Dillon. I use the Dillon spray lube.

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[EMT480]

I would try cutting the brass to length before any forming is done.

Not to sound like a wise guy, why trim first?

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[BK7saum]

If you trim to length first you lose the advantage of already having a .223 formed neck and are taking a ~0.350 case body down to ~0.248 in one step. I may be missing something, but having tried similar before, I would say that would increase the difficulty and case loss considerably.

The shoulder is 1.4378 from base and case length on a 17 FB is in the 1.40-1.41 range.

I would continue to trim after the shiulde has been pushed back at least to .221 fireball position, if not 17 M4 or 17FB position.

I turned my necks at .22 caliber because I don't have a 17 expander and turnibg mandrel. I also like the fact that forming the last reduction after sizing to 17FB puts the cut/donut into the shoulder and not the neck/shoulder junction. My necks continue to show good uniformity in wall thickness after the final size to 17.

[405grain]

Because the "new" 17 caliber case neck is formed from what used to be part of the 223 case body, wouldn't the walls on the necks of the formed 17 Fireball brass be too thick? I'm guessing, but I think that you're going to have to turn the case necks on the formed 17 Fireball brass because, even if the new cartridges will chamber there might not be sufficient clearance for the case neck to properly let go of the bullet when the round is fired. Turning the case necks will give you the correct wall thickness on that part of the brass.

[M-Tecs]

Not to sound like a wise guy, why trim first?

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Reduction in friction from the long neck contacting the die. First neck sizing should be 30 cal and do about 2 caliber steps until you get to 17 Cal.

[gc45]

To point; once sized down and trimmed you will have case necks that are pretty thick. Turning them is another process made easy with correct tools. All my varmint brass is turned plus my rifles all have custom chambered barrels so pending your guns chamber you too might be turning necks.

[EMT480]

After I cut the case length down. (Still longer than final length) I turn the necks on each case. I have a second trimmer dedicated to this process. Don't have to constantly swap stuff around.

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