Universal v Unique

[braddock]

Over here in the UK Unique is a bit like rocking horse crap, but I've managed to get a hold of some Universal also some Lovex D036. All 3 have the same burning rate according to several manufacturers sites I've visited.
Has anyone used Universal as a substitute for unique in 30/30 and 308. I have boolits of 120, 145-ish, 163 172 and 180 grains apiece in 30 cal and would like to get a starting load, especially for the 308.
Any advice received gratefully.
I'm not to fussed about substituting D036 as it fills my 357 loads just fine but it's always there as a hard times substitute.

[Tall]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a very fast powder for large rifle calibers like you are wanting to reload for. Unique has been available around here in any case. Load charts are for comparison purposes - not meant for what you are proposing.

[jdgabbard]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a very fast powder for large rifle calibers like you are wanting to reload for. Unique has been available around here in any case. Load charts are for comparison purposes - not meant for what you are proposing.

It's been used for a long time for lighter loads in medium cases. See this thread: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...lit-Rifle-Load

Red Dot is also used very similarly: https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/th...ns-of-red-dot/



OP, I would suggest looking into Red Dot if you can't find Unique. It might be possible to work something up with Universal, but being an end of life/discontinued product you probably use much of it before it's gone...

[braddock]

Thanks both for your responses, jdg I'm nearly 80 and I reckon my pound of universal will make up to 700 rounds at the load level I'm thinking about, it'll probably outlast my needs!

[P Flados]

Quickload runs are not load data, but might help get you close. I will start with several boolits with the Lovex powder as availability is probably less of a concern.

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 120, LYM LRN GC 311576
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Lovex D036

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-31.3   23    11.00   1665     757   14489   2346    100.0    1.821
-28.1   24    11.50   1710     798   15636   2436    100.0    1.756
-25.0   25    12.00   1754     840   16824   2526    100.0    1.696
-21.9   26    12.50   1796     881   18050   2615    100.0    1.641
-18.8   27    13.00   1838     923   19316   2704    100.0    1.591
-15.6   29    13.50   1879     964   20621   2793    100.0    1.544
-12.5   30    14.00   1919    1006   21965   2881    100.0    1.500
-09.4   31    14.50   1958    1047   23349   2968    100.0    1.459
-06.3   32    15.00   1997    1089   24772   3055    100.0    1.421
-03.1   33    15.50   2034    1130   26236   3142    100.0    1.385
+00.0   34    16.00   2072    1172   27739   3228    100.0    1.352
+03.1   35    16.50   2108    1214   29282   3314    100.0    1.320
+06.3   36    17.00   2144    1255   30866   3399    100.0    1.291
+09.4   37    17.50   2179    1297   32490   3483    100.0    1.262
+12.5   38    18.00   2214    1339   34156   3567    100.0    1.236
+15.6   39    18.50   2248    1380   35864   3651    100.0    1.210

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 173, LYM LFN GC 31141
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Lovex D036

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-31.3   25    11.00   1465     839   19261   2264    100.0    1.936
-28.1   27    11.50   1503     883   20742   2355    100.0    1.872
-25.0   28    12.00   1539     926   22269   2446    100.0    1.813
-21.9   29    12.50   1575     970   23843   2537    100.0    1.759
-18.8   30    13.00   1610    1014   25463   2627    100.0    1.708
-15.6   31    13.50   1645    1057   27130   2716    100.0    1.661
-12.5   32    14.00   1679    1101   28843   2805    100.0    1.617
-09.4   33    14.50   1712    1145   30603   2894    100.0    1.576
-06.3   35    15.00   1745    1189   32411   2982    100.0    1.538
-03.1   36    15.50   1777    1234   34266   3070    100.0    1.502
+00.0   37    16.00   1808    1278   36169   3157    100.0    1.467
+03.1   38    16.50   1840    1322   38121   3244    100.0    1.435
+06.3   39    17.00   1870    1367   40122   3330    100.0    1.405
+09.4   40    17.50   1901    1412   42173   3416    100.0    1.376
+12.5   41    18.00   1930    1456   44274   3501    100.0    1.348
+15.6   43    18.50   1960    1501   46427   3586    100.0    1.322

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 180, LYM LFN GC 311407
Useable Case Capaci: 44.066 grain H2O = 2.861 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Lovex D036

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-31.3   26    11.00   1451     856   20401   2243    100.0    1.933
-28.1   27    11.50   1488     900   21971   2333    100.0    1.870
-25.0   29    12.00   1524     944   23589   2423    100.0    1.811
-21.9   30    12.50   1560     989   25257   2513    100.0    1.757
-18.8   31    13.00   1594    1033   26975   2602    100.0    1.707
-15.6   32    13.50   1628    1077   28743   2691    100.0    1.661
-12.5   33    14.00   1662    1122   30561   2779    100.0    1.618
-09.4   35    14.50   1695    1167   32429   2867    100.0    1.577
-06.3   36    15.00   1727    1212   34348   2955    100.0    1.539
-03.1   37    15.50   1759    1257   36318   3042    100.0    1.503
+00.0   38    16.00   1790    1302   38340   3128    100.0    1.469
+03.1   39    16.50   1821    1347   40414   3214    100.0    1.437
+06.3   41    17.00   1851    1392   42542   3300    100.0    1.406
+09.4   42    17.50   1881    1438   44724   3385    100.0    1.378
+12.5   43    18.00   1911    1484   46962   3470    100.0    1.350
+15.6   44    18.50   1940    1529   49255   3554    100.0    1.324

And here are a couple of runs with Universal

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 120, LYM LRN GC 311576
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon Universal

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-31.3   37    11.00   1736     823   22534   2185    100.0    1.562
-28.1   39    11.50   1778     863   24112   2275    100.0    1.514
-25.0   41    12.00   1819     903   25727   2364    100.0    1.470
-21.9   42    12.50   1859     943   27380   2453    100.0    1.429
-18.8   44    13.00   1898     983   29068   2541    100.0    1.392
-15.6   46    13.50   1936    1024   30794   2629    100.0    1.356
-12.5   48    14.00   1974    1064   32557   2716    100.0    1.323
-09.4   49    14.50   2011    1104   34356   2803    100.0    1.292
-06.3   51    15.00   2047    1144   36193   2889    100.0    1.263
-03.1   53    15.50   2083    1185   38068   2975    100.0    1.236
+00.0   54    16.00   2118    1225   39981   3060    100.0    1.210
+03.1   56    16.50   2153    1266   41931   3144    100.0    1.185
+06.3   58    17.00   2187    1306   43921   3229    100.0    1.162
+09.4   59    17.50   2221    1347   45950   3312    100.0    1.140
+12.5   61    18.00   2254    1387   48019   3395    100.0    1.119
+15.6   63    18.50   2287    1428   50128   3478    100.0    1.099

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 173, LYM LFN GC 31141
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon Universal

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-31.3   41    11.00   1500     879   27979   2142    100.0    1.729
-28.1   43    11.50   1535     921   29862   2232    100.0    1.679
-25.0   44    12.00   1571     964   31787   2321    100.0    1.632
-21.9   46    12.50   1605    1007   33753   2410    100.0    1.590
-18.8   48    13.00   1639    1049   35762   2499    100.0    1.550
-15.6   50    13.50   1672    1092   37813   2587    100.0    1.512
-12.5   52    14.00   1704    1135   39907   2675    100.0    1.477
-09.4   54    14.50   1736    1178   42044   2762    100.0    1.444
-06.3   56    15.00   1768    1221   44226   2849    100.0    1.413
-03.1   57    15.50   1799    1265   46452   2935    100.0    1.383
+00.0   59    16.00   1830    1308   48723   3021    100.0    1.355
+03.1   61    16.50   1860    1352   51041   3106    100.0    1.329
+06.3   63    17.00   1890    1395   53406   3191    100.0    1.304  ! Near Maximum !

[muskeg13]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

Where did you get the info that Titegroup has been discontinued? It's listed as available for sale on the Hodgdon website now. Midway also has it. https://shop.hodgdon.com/hodgdon-titegroup/

[Driver man]

Universal is AP70 made by ADI but discontinued 2-3 years ago. I have a fair bit and wont run out for a while. I use it in place of Unique and use it in pistol loads and rifle loads. 308 , 303, 7.62x39, Rossi92 in 357, I load 303 and 308 using a wide range of projectiles up to 220 grain with very good results . The 7.62x39 will shoot 220grain using Ap70 but needs a little bit more work. in 308 using a cast 155 grain hp driven by 11 grains unique or AP70 lubed with Bens Red will give you 1580 -1600 fps .The same projectile with 10 grains and a dacron filler produces 1450 to 1500 fps.
173 grain cast driven by 10 grains Unique or AP70 will give you 1430to 1450 fps.
210 grain cast driven by 10 grains will give you 1325 fps . I use this load for red deer up close and get complete pass through with good expansion using soft alloy.

[braddock]

Hey, thanks fellas, what a mine of information.
I've just bought a NIB Lee hand press so I'll get to work as soon as the adaptors arrive to fit the dies.
PFlados many thanks for that info, it's everything I need. You were right the D036 is certainly available to the point that the price is about the same that it was two years back whereas Hodgdons etc has doubled in price if it's available.I'll only be loading toward the lower end of the scale as I have quite a bit of 2400 and RL7 though I'd prefer to keep that for the 30/30 full loads as my Win 94 really likes it.

[braddock]

Sorry, should clarify, I normally load on a Lee classic turret press, the hand press I bought to load when I'm on hunting trips where the airlines impose limits on the amount of ammo that can be carried.

[Pereira]

I have never tried Universal in my entire reloading life, but have used a ton of Unique in all kinds of applications. This old Winchester likes this load pretty well.

Sent from my SM-A146U using Tapatalk

[braddock]

I loaded up 10 357 mag cases with around 6 grains of Universal and a 158 TC (silhouette boolit), not perfect tonight at the 25 yard indoor range but a step in the right direction.
I'm just making up a dipper to throw 10 grains of universal for the 308 as well as another dipper to throw 16 grains of 2400 for it. I found a stache of a further 75 167 grain gc boolits so I intend to load up all my spare 308 cases and about 40 of my 30/30 cases to see how they perform against one another, that is when the epoxy dries in the two modified lee dippers.

[racepres]

I do Not guess I will be substituting Universal for Unique in this lifetime...Unique is still less expensive...and has Much more load data...Certainly at My Shop ...so very much more... Universal don't even count..And, Unique is fairly inexpensive...But, Not Available...That is a Problem.. My personal solution is BE-86...YMMV

[braddock]

Just a quick post to bring folks up to speed, my 94 30/30 likes 167grn, 173 grn at around 1600 -2100 fps, best groups 2" at 50 yards with iron sights, absolutely loathes 120 grain boolits does full choke at 50 yards.
My BLR 81 in 308 loves them all which I found astounding, velocities from about 1600 wth the 120grns, 1750 with the 167 grn and 2100 with the 173 grn, best group was 1" with the 173 grns other 2 were about 1.5" I quite like these loads and, if I could shoot better, they could be much better.
Muzzle blast was quiet compared to full blown 308 rounds, 30/30 they're almost full blown loads but still quieter than factory loads.
Powders were universal for the 120 grain boolits, 2400 for the 167grn and Rl7 for the 173 grns.
I didn't experience any leading that I could see with about 80 loads through each gun.
The 120 grn loads were very short as can be expected and, surprisingly the 308 173 grn loads were 2.8" long and the bore or rather land diameter segment of the bullet was entering the rifling by about 20 though, making the last few degrees of lever throw a bit on the stiff side.
No such issues either extracting or pressure signs, very pleased with the way things went future 308 173 grain loads I will shorten by about 30 thou.
I just spent the afternoon gas checking a few hundred boolits,which are all plain based and I'm using sage outdoors pb gc, will be loading them up after eating.
Once again, many thanks for your guidance I really appreciate it.

[gwpercle]

Where did you get the info that Titegroup has been discontinued? It's listed as available for sale on the Hodgdon website now. Midway also has it. https://shop.hodgdon.com/hodgdon-titegroup/

Like Like Like !!!

That's great to hear ... I had just discovered TiteGroup a few years ago and ...
I like It !
Gary

[justindad]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a very fast powder for large rifle calibers like you are wanting to reload for. Unique has been available around here in any case. Load charts are for comparison purposes - not meant for what you are proposing.

I purchased Titegroup new from a sporting goods store within the last 6 months. I paid $31 for the pound.

[Henryseale]

[I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a veQUOTE=Tall;5697514]Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

You might want to re-check with your source on that info. Both Universal and Titegroup are readily available from multiple sources, including Hodgdon website.