Rolling Block Cadet

[marlinman93]

Now this doesn't look like much, and being military appearing, it's outside my area of collecting. But it's one of only three I've ever seen, and they were never cataloged by Remington. And no mention in any of the various Remington Rolling Block reference books either!
What you see was listed as a .43 Spanish Rolling Block, with a 28" barrel. But if you look closely you might notice this isn't a military action at all, it's an octagon top Sporting Rifle action! And looking at the buttstock it's also a Sporting Rifle buttstock and buttplate too! And unless somebody did something stupid these were all chambered in .45-70, which is very rare considering these were built on the smaller #1 1/2 actions! This is a very rare #1 1/2 Cadet rifle built on special order for military academies, and the only #1 1/2 chambered in .45-70 cartridge! The 28" barrel would be odd for any military Rolling Blocks, but correct for the 1 1/2 Cadet rifles.
I called the auction back when this auction opened to ask how they determined it was a ".43 Spanish" and they said it was a "walk in" by a local seller, and he told them what cartridge it was in. So obviously they didn't check, which made most collectors ignore it at the auction thinking it was a South American full sized military rifle.
Since this auction is just 40 miles away I'll drive down next week to pay for it, and avoid shipping fees, or credit card fees. It slipped past anyone who might have figured out what it really is, so went for less than most military surplus Rollers go for!


Images from the auction:

[Abert Rim]

Wonderful find, Vall!

[marlinman93]

Wonderful find, Vall!

Thanks! It's been terrible waiting as their auctions are up for a month before the bidding ends, and then that stupid 30 second clock reset thing to make the end go 5 hrs. more!
I hoped I was high enough to win it, and in the end it went lower than most military surplus Rollers go for, so that was great!

[marlinman93]

Almost forgot that I tossed in a bid on an early Lyman #17 globe sight too! It's the style built before they made interchangeable apertures like later had, so it has a peep and a post with a tiny screw on one side that turns 1/4 turn to change from peep to post. Closed at $23, which was silly cheap.

[Mk42gunner]

It will be interesting to see if it is a .43 Spanish, as listed, or a .45-70 as you say it should be given its configuration.

One thing I have slowly learned about old guns is to never say never.

Robert

[John Taylor]

Nice find.

[marlinman93]

It will be interesting to see if it is a .43 Spanish, as listed, or a .45-70 as you say it should be given its configuration.

One thing I have slowly learned about old guns is to never say never.

Robert

No way it could be .43 Spanish or any of the other large base cartridges foreign Rollers were made in. First because the #1 1/2 uses a small .850" thread shank, and those cartridges are too large to be safe. Second these little 1 1/2 Cadet rifles were all in .45-70, so I can't imagine somebody reaming the chamber to .43 Spanish on a .457" barrel?
I will of course do a chamber cast and slug the bore, as I do that on every old gun I've ever owned. But don't expect it to be a .43 Spanish, or any other cartridge besides .45-70.

[marlinman93]

Nice find.

Thanks John.
Hoping it cleans up a little bit, but not planning on doing anything too aggressive in the way of cleaning.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for explaining why a #1½ should not be chambered for a larger diameter cartridge. I must have read that in the past, but did not retain it in the easy recall locker.

Robert

[oldremguy]

Now this doesn't look like much, and being military appearing, it's outside my area of collecting. But it's one of only three I've ever seen, and they were never cataloged by Remington. And no mention in any of the various Remington Rolling Block reference books either!
What you see was listed as a .43 Spanish Rolling Block, with a 28" barrel. But if you look closely you might notice this isn't a military action at all, it's an octagon top Sporting Rifle action! And looking at the buttstock it's also a Sporting Rifle buttstock and buttplate too! And unless somebody did something stupid these were all chambered in .45-70, which is very rare considering these were built on the smaller #1 1/2 actions! This is a very rare #1 1/2 Cadet rifle built on special order for military academies, and the only #1 1/2 chambered in .45-70 cartridge! The 28" barrel would be odd for any military Rolling Blocks, but correct for the 1 1/2 Cadet rifles.
I called the auction back when this auction opened to ask how they determined it was a ".43 Spanish" and they said it was a "walk in" by a local seller, and he told them what cartridge it was in. So obviously they didn't check, which made most collectors ignore it at the auction thinking it was a South American full sized military rifle.
Since this auction is just 40 miles away I'll drive down next week to pay for it, and avoid shipping fees, or credit card fees. It slipped past anyone who might have figured out what it really is, so went for less than most military surplus Rollers go for!


Images from the auction:

It's Cadet Model No.206 and it is chambered in 45-70. They are generally found in very good to excellent condition. The one I have is in fair condition, on the bottom of the buttstock is stamped WESTERN, which stands for Western Costume Company. My rifle was used in the early western movies, I keep on watching early black & white movies hoping to spot it. That would explain why the wood on my rifle is pretty beat up, it looks like a small kid took a hammer to it. Here are some photos of it.

Have a good day,
Matt

[marlinman93]

It's Cadet Model No.206 and it is chambered in 45-70. They are generally found in very good to excellent condition. The one I have is in fair condition, on the bottom of the buttstock is stamped WESTERN, which stands for Western Costume Company. My rifle was used in the early western movies, I keep on watching early black & white movies hoping to spot it. That would explain why the wood on my rifle is pretty beat up, it looks like a small kid took a hammer to it. Here are some photos of it.

Have a good day,
Matt

Thank you much! That's the first advertisement I've seen for these and firs documented paper to show what they are, along with a Model number! I wonder if the "No. 206" is what Remington called this, or if that was a number M. Hartley assigned to these in their catalog?
I can't quite make out what the ad says? Is this an ad you have, or know where I might find a copy of it?

Just got back from picking up this # 1 1/2 Cadet rifle. As soon as I got out to my car I dropped a .45-70 cartridge into the chamber, and it's a perfect fit! So all is as I expected, and it's a rare .45-70 Cadet 1 1/2!
The auction pictures did no service to this Rolling Block, as it's a much nicer rifle than the pictures showed. The stocks and metal are both dark, but very smooth and no damage to metal or wood. Bore is very nice, likely because it sat without owners knowing what the chamber was.
I was surprised by the size of the gun since pictures made it look like any military Rolling Block. But with the Sporting action and buttstock the barrel and forearm are shorter and lighter, so next to a #1 military it's about 20% smaller, and lighter. A very slender, lightweight version.
Thought I might do some mild cleanup, but now having it in hand I wont do a thing to it, other than take it down, to inspect, clean, and oil internals.
Try to get some pictures today or tomorrow.

[oldremguy]

Thank you much! That's the first advertisement I've seen for these and firs documented paper to show what they are, along with a Model number! I wonder if the "No. 206" is what Remington called this, or if that was a number M. Hartley assigned to these in their catalog?
I can't quite make out what the ad says? Is this an ad you have, or know where I might find a copy of it?

Just got back from picking up this # 1 1/2 Cadet rifle. As soon as I got out to my car I dropped a .45-70 cartridge into the chamber, and it's a perfect fit! So all is as I expected, and it's a rare .45-70 Cadet 1 1/2!
The auction pictures did no service to this Rolling Block, as it's a much nicer rifle than the pictures showed. The stocks and metal are both dark, but very smooth and no damage to metal or wood. Bore is very nice, likely because it sat without owners knowing what the chamber was.
I was surprised by the size of the gun since pictures made it look like any military Rolling Block. But with the Sporting action and buttstock the barrel and forearm are shorter and lighter, so next to a #1 military it's about 20% smaller, and lighter. A very slender, lightweight version.
Thought I might do some mild cleanup, but now having it in hand I wont do a thing to it, other than take it down, to inspect, clean, and oil internals.
Try to get some pictures today or tomorrow.

Here are some better photos from the original catalog that I have, sadly is in poor shape and the pages have separated.

Have a good day,
Matt

[marlinman93]

Thanks!
I think from the images, and descriptions the numbers are for M. Hartley's catalog and likely not what Remington used maybe?
The top is the Cadet built on the 1867 Navy pistols, next the Cadet built on the #1 1/2, and bottom the Cadet built on the #4 action.
Great old catalog, and I'll have to see if I can turn up another copy of it!

[marlinman93]

Took the Cadet down to it's basic pieces today and cleaned a lot of dried up oil out of it, but found it very clean inside. Once I got it sprayed out with brake clean, and then oiled it went together easier than it came apart.
Dug through my parts bins and found a sling loop that was a good copy for size and condition and bent it open to install, then squeezed it closed to get it back to shape.
Just a wipe down afterwards and it's done.

[xtriggerman]

There are some Antique guns that just cry out "pick me up"..... and feel the true feeling of History in your hands. THIS Roller is clearly one of those. What a great find. Thanks for the informational on a 1 1/2 cadet! Enjoy

[oldremguy]

Hello Marlinman93,

I had seen your post on the Remington Society of America about bayonets for your cadet rifle, for some reason I am blocked from making posts replies on their web site. I tried putting my Remington bayonet for my New York State model rolling block rifle and it went right on my cadet rifle and the retaining ring lock up right behind the front sight. Most socket bayonets for the rolling block rifles will have no US stampings on the blade like are found on the Springfield Trapdoor bayonets. Hope this helps you in your search for one that fits your rifle.

Have a good day,
Matt

[marlinman93]

Hello Marlinman93,

I had seen your post on the Remington Society of America about bayonets for your cadet rifle, for some reason I am blocked from making posts replies on their web site. I tried putting my Remington bayonet for my New York State model rolling block rifle and it went right on my cadet rifle and the retaining ring lock up right behind the front sight. Most socket bayonets for the rolling block rifles will have no US stampings on the blade like are found on the Springfield Trapdoor bayonets. Hope this helps you in your search for one that fits your rifle.

Have a good day,
Matt

Thanks Matt!
I will have the gun with me at our monthly collector show and there are several friends there who collect 1800's military rifles and accessories also. One of them may be able to put me together with a bayonet for a NY State Rolling Block hopefully.

[Slugster]

Excellent catch, and interesting info!

[marlinman93]

Excellent catch, and interesting info!

Thanks. My first "military" type Rolling Block. All my others are Sporting Rifles, but this will fit in with either type.