12 gauge/bore heavy/paradox slugs- possibly blackpowder

[stef76]

Hi gents, looking to to run a heavy slug in a regular 12 gauge for the first time, maybe a decent bolt action or one of the rifled turk leverguns. In Australia we have zero shotgun powders left on the shelf, so considering blackpowder.... I have a Big game rifle background but no experience loading shotgun or blackpowder. I do know you can get healthy power from loads of black behind big slugs though which is what I am after

CBE moulds here for 770-820 grain slugs
https://www.castbulletengineering.co...665-12ga-pdx-s
https://www.castbulletengineering.co.../669-735-815fn
or heavier..

brass cases/ black powder, whatever it takes. Not worried about recoil, can be as stout as can be.
Thanks for any ideas or general advice to get started.

[Nobade]

You will essentially end up with something like my Pedersoli 12 bore double rifle, which works very well indeed. I have only ever shot it with balls, which weigh over 500 grains and are plenty enough for anything I could hunt here. But those paradox slugs sure look interesting and would have plenty of power. The only question would be can they fit into a cartridge case that can be chambered? Of course it would depend on the dimensions of your individual firearm and the thickness of the cases. The brass ones are bigger inside than the plastic ones so hopefully it would all fit together. I also like the choice of black powder, as you know you'll get plenty of power, safe pressures, and be able to fill the case so the bullet has something to sit against which is a real consideration in a repeater. And loads can be whatever you like, I have run anywhere from 90 grains up to 200 grains of powder in my rifle and find it works best at 150. That gets it to 1500 fps so a decent trajectory and it regulates to the sights there. One consideration is the strength of the cases, the only brass ones we can get here are Magtech from Brazil, and they are not all that strong, being made for normal shotgun loads and not express rifle use. I don't know how long they would last being loaded like that. It does sound like you'll have a fun and interesting project that will be able to flatten any game animal you chose to use it on.

[stef76]

Thanks, we can get bertram 12ga cases here, not sure on quality. I'm thinking there is a lot to learn, is there a resource for starting out on this? I was even thinking of using 3" heavy magnum shells and pouring the shot out and dropping a slug in for fun as well.

[Fitz]

I use the Magtech cases and cast .730 round balls they fit well in the brass case with a cut down wad cup to keep the ball centerd in the plastic shells there's not enough room with the shot cup seems to bulge the shell but a good fit without and just do a roll crimp. I run 110 gr. by volume of fffg BP the plastic shells will sometimes make it to 3 firings . Them CBE moulds sure look impressive ,I'll be wanting to see how they work for you ,might just have to order one if we can still buy from Ya'll.

[longbow]

I have been interested in Paradox guns for about as long as I can remember! If I had a half a functioning brain I would have saved up and bought a used one which can be had for $3000 to $5000 US but for me that was and is a lot of money. Like many I have had a fascination for big bore double rifles and Paradox guns... mostly Paradox guns. I can't say why except "because".

Having said that I have shot a lot of smoothbore slugs down range over the years. To date most Foster style slugs I have home cast , been given or bought provide marginal accuracy out to about 50 yards. Round balls have done generally better to very good to 50 yards plus if loaded properly giving groups of around 4" or better usually. I have round ball moulds from 0.662" to 0.735". The 0.662" RB's in shotcups and 0.735" RB's maked have given the best results for me. Plus I borrowed a rifled gun and the 0.735" RB's shot into 2" at 50 yards so pretty good and that was with open sights and after shooting quite a bit prior to those groups.

The Kynoch style bullet (CBE 12GA PDX S) is my favourite all time boolit! If I had a rifled gun I would buy a mould... and may do so anyway. At some point I will have toy money for a rifled gun or rifled choke tube and would like one of those boolits to play with.

On to your questions, yes BP works well under slugs but is of course dirty so lubed felt wads would be a good idea to reduce fouling build up. I have also found that BP under plastic gas seals resulted in a nasty plastic fouling in my bore. Others say they have no trouble. I am not sure if the plastic was melting or was stripped off by BP fouling but the result was a mess so be warned and if you use plastic cups or cas seals watch for plastic fouling.


0.735" RB's are somewhat oversize but I have had not trouble using them at all and there are posts by several people this site who use them in both smoothbore and rifled guns successfully. It is a standard Lyman mould. Also, RB moulds of any diameter are availabe from Ball Moulds in the UK:

https://www.ballmoulds.com/

The CBE slugs should load into plastic hulls just fine but will be loose in brass hulls and if you go with "normal" brass hulls you will have to use 11 ga. card wads. The slug will likely be loose fit into typical brass hulls as well and not sure how you would address that except to make or have made a "neck sizer" for the brass hulls. Again, there are some posts on this site about using slugs in brass hulls if you search.

The Nitro Express forum and Double Gun Shop forums should also have some information on slugs in brass hulls.

Another issue is load data for heavy slugs over about 600 grs. With BP not an issue but with smokeless powders there is not a lot of load data available for heavy slugs and little if any for use in brass hulls. As you are probably aware, reloading for shotgun is not like reloading for rifles in that there are not reliable pressure signs to look for when working up a load. You should use published pressure tested data with little modification to be safe. Seemingly small changes in components can lead to large differences in pressure with smokeless powder. Again, BP or subs it isn't an issue.

There are some threads here and on other sites that use hefty loads of slow burning pistol or fastish rifle powders like IMR4227 that you may be interested in if you can get it. Look for Ed Hubels posts here and on other sites:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...FH-Slug-Tester

Also, Carl Pilerie (cpileri) posted a lengthy thread on heavy load data and some Paradox load data on this site if you do a search. Some was for above normal SAAMI 12 ga. pressures so be wary if you use any of that info.

I hope that helps some.

I will be following as I am quite interested in the Paradox bullets and surprised that they are not used more but I find very little about people using them.

Longbow

[stef76]

Thanks for the replies gents. Fitz I believe the fella still ships internationally. They were a famous maker here but I seem to remember they werent in business for some time, so must have re-opened the business.

Like yourself Longbow I have had a long time fascination with bore guns and also suprised me the loads were not more popular. All these years of suppliers marketing 'xyz deep penetrating deerhammer' or folks scrambling to buy up the mighty brennekes when they could be found. Meanwhile the paradox slug load would knock them all out of the park, with a historical flair to boot. Pity Dixie terminator slugs were never available here when they were running.

the issue for me is also lack of available components and wads here for plastic shells . I have been told trying to order from companies in the US they are now considered like ammunition, IE permits and paperwork.

So its either converting factory shells redneck style with slug replacing the shot or getting the brass cases running well.

Im going to call CBE moulds anyway to have a chat about these moulds and other things. Will let you know what I find

[W.R.Buchanan]

That CBE Paradox slug is a perfect Repro of the original Paradox Slugs used in the big English Paradox Guns. I have a G&A Magazine from 1962 that my Mom bought me during a Saturday trip to the Super Market when I was 12 years old.

It has a story about a guy who found an 8 Bore Evans Double Paradox Gun and went about figuring out the loads and shooting it. It was a real handful! it had pictures of the same exact style of Slug.

IIRC he was using 8 Drams of Black in his 8 Bore Shells. There was also pictures of 12 bore guns by Westly Richards and H&H. These guns were all called "Ball and Shot Guns" and were the preferred arm for the guy going to "The Continent" with the British Army.

I have gone a little ways down this Rabbit Hole with my Monkeyberg 500 with a Rifled Choke Tube in a Smoothbore Barrel. It shoots Lyman and Lee Slugs and Birdshot very well.

Randy