Winchester 1892 SRC button mag restoration in 218 bee - Owens barrel ?

[square butte]

I lucked into a Winchester 1892 saddle ring carbine half magazine ( same configuration as that two carbines that Bad Ass Wallace has shown photos of) , beautifully restored in 218 bee. The barrel profile matches exactly what a 25-20 or 32-20 original would have been (which probably what this one started out as), including the slotted post front sight set up and carbine style rear sight. The one and only marking on the barrel besides 218 Bee is "OWENS". Anyone have a clue as to who the OWENS marking might represent as a barrel maker or restorer???
Another interesting feature of this rifle is that it has a case colored receiver lever and hammer.

[cwtebay]

There was an Owens (Owen?) that seems to show up on a lot of sporterized WW2 rifles. Maybe?

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[Shawlerbrook]

Could it R G Owen from Sauquoit, NY( about 20 miles from here). He made many sporting milsurps and also box lock shotguns. An interesting fellow.


R. G. (Bob) Owen
1884-1959
PS March, 1999



Robert Griffith Owen was born to John and Ann Owen at Amlwch on the isle of Anglesey, Wales, UK on December 15, 1884. His father was a wood worker who had worked for Greener in Birmingham as a stockmaker. When Bob was 12, after he had a basic education , his father apprenticed him as a cabinet maker to the firm of Harland & Wolff, Shipbuilders (H&W built the Titanic) in Liverpool, England. After his four year apprenticeship ended in 1900 he went to sea as ship-joiner on the H.M.S. Majestic for the White Star Line under Captain Edward J. Smith who would later take the helm of the ill-fated Titanic. Bob sailed on the Majestic until 1910 when he left the ship in New York City for a job working on the new ferry terminal at Hoboken, New Jersey. By 1911 he had traveled out West and was framing houses, first in Goldfield , Nevada then in Tucson, Arizona. Bob joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1916 and in 1918 when the war was over he returned to the USA, married and took a job working in Alexandria, Virginia at a ship-yard. One day in a gunshop in Alexandria Bob saw a custom sporting rifle and decided that he could do a better job of stocking. Bob quit his job and moved to his wife’s home town of Sauquoit, New York. Bob was given space in a knife factory owned by his father-in-law , Tjerk Pope, and lived with his in-laws until Bob’s gunmaking could support them.

It is my belief that when Bob went into the gunmaking business his idea was to make custom made-to-order rifles and shotguns as they were made in the better shops of London. What this means is only one grade was to be made: “Best”, using the finest materials and workmanship. One of his first ads in Arms and the Man reads “Springfield Remodeling and Gunstocking. Fine Italian walnut gunstock blanks. Anson & Deeley guns made to your order”. Owen’s first ads show up in 1922 under the name “Owen Bros., Sauquoit, N.Y.”. Bob wanted to bring his two brothers David and John who were both skilled wood-workers into the business with him. This never happened, although both brothers at different times advertised in the American Rifleman selling imported stock blanks from 3 Wynstay St., Liverpool, England.

Bob Owen followed in the tradition of the smaller gunmakers of England: Several people, each who were good at what they did, would work on the gun. The guns made at Sauquoit were inletted, shaped and finished by Bob. The metal work was done by M.S. Risley (1886-1968) of Hubbardsville, NY. (You may know him better as the “R” in .22-3000 R2 Lovell.) For the most part the engraving was done by R.J. Kornbrath in Hartford, Connecticut, some engraving work was sent to his friend August Heym in Germany, the checkering was done by Bill Snyder of Utica, New York who checkered for Savage and possibly Remington and was considered by many as one of the best checkerers in the business.

These first guns made by Owen and marked “Owen Bros., Sauquoit, N.Y.” represent the pinnacle of pre-war custom rifle making in America. All these that I have been able to gather information on are fully engraved except for a small part of the barrel. The bolt sleeves are engraved and the knobs are checkered as are the buttplates. The checkering on the stock is very involved with an intricate pattern covering most of the forearm and extending back from the pistol grip. I do not know how many guns are marked Owen Bros., but there were probably not more than a dozen or so. When the marking was changed to R.G. Owen, Sauquoit, NY, the quality of the rifles stayed the same as the earlier Owen Bros., with full checkering and engraving. These rifles that I call “Early Sauquoit” sold in the neighborhood of $350, in 1925 T.K. Lee had an Owen made that cost Lee $500. Owens were among the most costly custom rifles made at this time in the United States. After a while a plainer grade of rifle evolved at Sauquoit. At about the same time after going through many style changes the “Arrowhead” appeared on the sides of the stock. Those familiar with the higher grade Remington double barrel shotguns will recognize this arrowhead. Did Snyder have anything to do with it? In order to have a lower sight profile on the Springfield, Owen used a Lyman 48 receiver sight as other makers did but he ordered the sights with a flat bottom slide that usually came on the Mauser Lyman sight. The Springfield-Lyman sight has a hump and can not be lower than the rear receiver bridge. To use these Mauser slides Bob had the rear receiver bridge cut down the width of the sight so it fit into the bridge and protected the sight. In this way he could lower the front sight which made for a more streamlined appearance. This adaptation caught on and many Springfields of the period will be found with a Mauser 48 slide in a Springfield base. The bolt handle was slimmed down and any sharp corners such as those on the Lyman sight were rounded off. The rear of the magazine cut-off housing
(or bolt stop) was rounded off and looks so natural that without another Springfield near by it could easily be overlooked. Most of Bob’s pre-war production will be found on the Springfield action, his rifle of choice.


Captain E.C. Crossman shows pictures of one of these highly engraved early Owens in his book The Book Of the Springfield © SATPCo. 1932. One other Owen fan was Captain Paul Curtis who shows several pictures of Owen rifles in his book Guns & Gunning Penn Publishing Co. © 1934. Bob Owen wrote an article about the 1903 Springfield custom sporting rifle for American Rifleman in the September 27th, 1927 issue titled “Our One Best rifle and Its Proper Stocking.”

In 1930 Owen and his family traveled to England where Bob caught up on the latest in gunmaking and purchased wood to bring back to the USA with him. For generations the center of supply for European thin shell walnut stock blanks was located in Liverpool. English, French, Italian, Spanish, Turkish and Circassian Walnut rifle blanks ran in price from $3 for a plain one to up to $40 for an exhibition blank. All the English wood merchants had a reputation of absolute fairness and were respected by all. The person most well known who supplied much of the better grades of imported wood to American custom gunmakers was Mitchell Bosley from Birmingham, England.

When the Owens returned to the USA they moved to Tucson, Arizona and in a May 1931 American Rifleman ad his address is listed at 222 S. Scott Street, Tucson. This ad says “Specializing in Springfield Sporters”. In an ad from July, 1931 he is advertising hinged floor plates with a release in the trigger guard for $10. These floor plate alterations may have been done in Germany. While in Tucson Bob became friends with barrel maker William A. Sukalle and it is believed that he did some stocking for Sukalle. If this is true I have yet to find a Sukalle gun with an Owen stock (thought that I did once, but that’s another story). It may be more truthful to say that some of Bob’s guns had Sukalle barrels on them. This was not a prosperous time in America for any of the custom gunmakers and Owen was no exception. I did learn that Bob built and sold at least one house in Tucson. I suspect that he spent more time building houses than rifles. In 1931 Bob sold some property that he and his wife Marjorie owned in Sauquoit as well as his personal gun collection. I am not sure when, but I believe that Bob and his family moved back East in late 1933. In January of 1934 Bob’s address is North Brookfield N.Y. In March 1935, Winchester stated in an American Rifleman advertisement, that R.G. Owen was the head of their custom department and had been for some time. Owen made a “try stock” for the Winchester model 21 double barrel shotgun and would travel on the weekends to Ambercrombe and Fitch and fit customers for the 21. While at the custom shop Bob worked on custom Model 70’s as well as the 21. The Winchester Museum in Cody, Wyoming has a Model 21 Winchester double rifle in caliber .405 Winchester that is catalogued as having been worked on by Bob.

In 1942 Harry D. Dodge, an industrialist of the Dodge auto making family was hired to revamp the Standard Products Company (an injection mould plant that made car parts at Port Clinton, Ohio) for war work and the production of the M1 Carbine. Bob was hired by Dodge as a assembly line supervisor. Bob was involved with the development of the M1 carbine when he was at Winchester and made the first stocks by hand. Standard Products must have been an interesting place to work if you were a gun crank. Also employed there were Eric Johnson from the Hoffman Arms Company, Orville Behrman and Carlyn Behrmann ( I just found out that Carlyn’s side of the family used two N’s) from the Niedner Rifle Corporation. When the war was over Bob and his family remained in Port Clinton until his death on December 6th, 1959. Bob chose one student to whom he passed on what he had learned. That was Edgar Warner of Port Clinton. When Tom Shelhamer was just starting out in stockmaking he admired the work of Owen and was impressed by pictures of the checkering on Owen rifles. As fate would have it when Bill Snyder was no longer checkering, Bob sent his stocks to Tom Shelhamer to be checkered.

Identifying an Owen:

All the early Owens are engraved in script on the barrel “Owen Bros. Sauquoit, NY.” The next markings engraved in script are found mainly on the barrel with the exception of a few that are marked on the forward part of the magazine bottom near the front screw “R. G. Owen Sauquoit”. About the time that the “Arrowhead” showed up on the side of the stock the markings “R.G. Owen” started to be used. I have seen Owen guns that had only the Arrowhead and no other markings. Other people may have used the Arrowhead a time or two but there is no mistaking the work of Owen. I have no record of any guns marked with a Tucson, Arizona or Port Clinton, Ohio address. Most guns made at Port Clinton are not marked in any way. I know of one rifle and one shotgun from Port Clinton marked “R. G. Owen”. Many Owen rifles will have a number on the barrel along with the name. I have not been able to learn the meaning of these numbers. A Savage in caliber .22 Hornet that was made after Bob had been stocking for over ten years is marked “No.1”. One person suggested that the numbers were the house numbers of the customer. Hey, that’s as good a guess as the next. On the engraved guns you will find the same one or two digit number on all the parts like grip cap, butt plate, floorplate as well as on the barreled action. These numbers were put on by the engraver or by Bob before the metal was sent off to keep them separate from other jobs.

About The Pictures:

Owen & Risley: Bob Owen on the left and Risley on the right. This picture was taken in Risley’s back yard in 1955 by H.J. (Jerry) Swinney. The rifle Bob is holding was Risley’s Owen-Springfield that sold at Richard A. Bourne auction May 14, 1980 lot number 137.

Kornbrath: An Owen Bros. bolt knob and floorplate by Kornbrath, the floorplate engraving was a favorite of Kornbrath’s and will be found on several different rifles. This is also illustrated in his catalog “Expert Gun Engraving”.

Lyman 48 Sight: The Owen on the left has the Mauser-Lyman sight and bolt stop housing streamlined. Compare this to the Springfield-Lyman on the right

Captain E.C. Crossman who you will remember as spearheading the Springfield sporter rifle project back in 1910 with Wundhammer. Crossman wrote the following about Owen in an April 1927 Field & Stream: “I have viewed, pawed-over, shot and otherwise maltreated a great hundred of these rifles in the sixteen years intervening. They range from the fine products of Wundhammer, Ross King, Hoffman, Griffin & Howe and various German and British stockers, down to the home-grown product of the brother under the delusion that anybody could stock and check said stock after once reading a book telling one how. Some of these rifles, by the professional stockers, were very nice guns, but they left me unmoved, particularly of late years. The other day, however, my friend R.G. Owen sent me a finished Springfield sporter he had made for some Eastern chap who could afford to pay for the best. So far as rifles are concerned, he will get it in this gun. I believe it is the finest example of a sporting Springfield I have ever seen, and without a doubt the finest in this country.”



Well it’s seventy-one years later and I have pawed-over a few sporters myself. And like Captain Crossman, so far I’ve found nothing I like better than these early Sauquoit Owens.

[square butte]

It's marked OWENS - seems like it's gotta be someone who's name has an s on the end - There is no ' (apostrophe) before the S in this marking.

[cwtebay]

It's marked OWENS - seems like it's gotta be someone who's name has an s on the end - There is no ' (apostrophe) before the S in this marking.

Whatever it is, I'm jealous.

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[Shawlerbrook]

I agree with cw, I am jealous too and would love to see pictures. Was the gun rebarreled recently ? There is Owens Armory in AZ that seems to build more “modern” guns.

https://owensarmory.com/custom-rifles/

[square butte]

Appreciate all the replies - I think i'm going to call Owens armory in AZ to see if they may have any info about it that can be shared. My bet is that this was probably done somewhere in the last 10 to 20 years or so - Not to much wear. Most of the stuff on their website looks like modern bolt gun and AR type stuff. Regarding photos - we are a pretty low tech household. Still have a rotary phone on the kitchen table hooked up to a land line - No smart phone. My wife says she doesn't want a phone that's smarter than she is. I might be able to find a neighbor who could take a photo on a phone - But i have no idea how to get one onto the site here... I'd do it if i could figure it out

[Shawlerbrook]

Definitely let us know anything you find out.

[lmleck]

Newby here...This thread came to my attention when I searched for John Owens.
My name is Larry. I am almost too old to be useful any more...
I have an Owens '92 Winchester SRC first year of production modified for .22magnum. sn13XXX
He welded the loading port closed and installed a tubular magazine. The carrier was remade to handle the .22 magnums.
I have yet to load and fire it though I have had it for over 20 years.
John Owens was a gunsmith in Seminole or Shawnee Oklahoma.
My father met him at OKC gunshows way back when. My dad traded for the Owens '92 over 50 years ago.
I once met a trader who had several Owens conversions, but I have lost contact with him.
Winchester gunsmiths apparently approached Owens about his conversions at one time, and later produced their
94-22 rifles.
I am not a fount of knowledge, but these particulars are what I remember.
My father died in '03 so I am on my own about John Owens.

[Texas by God]

Interesting story and welcome to the forum!


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[square butte]

Imleck - Your story is as close as i've come to finding out who did mine. I suspect it was the same guy. One interesting thing about mine is that the receiver and a few other parts have been case colored. Mine is also a half or button magazine. It's probably my favorite rifle of what i have. Thanks for chiming in and sharing your story. Can you say what the "OWENS" marking on your barrel looks like - And perhaps what time period you think he may have been in business?

[pietro]

.

IIRC, early Model 1892's had case-hardening colors on the receivers until about 1910, +/- .............

.

[lmleck]

My 1892 22mag has block letters beside the rear site with "OWENS".
I tried to upload some pics, but my grand kids are not here to do it for me..."HEE HEE"
The rifle is blued with blue black.
If I get some actual pics I will try to show them.
Larry

[square butte]

That sounds like what mine looks like too - Mine is in the 515--- serial number range, But the case color was probably done when the rifle was converted. I have the same problems doing photos. No Grand Kids to help and a rotary phone on the kitchen table. Do you know a time period when this guys was in business?

[lmleck]

You gots to do a handstand to view these images!https://castboolits.gunloads.com/att...5&d=1722562303
I figured how to post an image, upside down at times....?

[square butte]

Larry , Thanks so much for posting these pictures - Yours and mine are certainly from the same hand. Lettering is the same - Even the finish on the wood looks the same. I'm curious what the front sight on yours looks like, and how the front of the magazine tube looks and was set up to receive the cartridges. These photos make my day ! Thanks again and God Bless