I've fired the same case for the last 5 years but then I breech seat. Its marked on the base so it goes into the chamber the same each time. The indexing of the bullets is accomplished by aligning a mark on the bullet with a mark on the breech seater. Its probably anal but on the other hand I'm on the lookout for an old bottle of sperm whale oil to concoct some of the old forgotten lubes. Probably won't work any better than something new but its something to talk about at the range.
Anyone here from the old San Diego Scheutzen Guild shooting at Dulzura? There was a doctor shooter there at one time firing antique rifles that were worth more than my first home. Almost every one there was breechseating when I shot there.
Its a lot of fun to spend the morning shooting at a leisurely pace. 200 yard off hand with a full value wind was always fun - not that I was any good.
Sounds like a priceless experience and times never to be seen again. I have read about the old timers and their shooting. Those folks likely forgot more about how to shoot for accuracy than most of us will ever know.
If shooting fixed ammunition with the bullet indexed at seating in the case, then I think its of a benefit.Originally Posted by M-Tecs
What feature do you index the bullet to? It's easy to find the thick side of the case or if its banana shaped finding the high side or low side is easy. What feature on a cast bullet are people indexing to?
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
No one place in particular. Pick a spot in the mold cavity and tap a sharp prick punch into it. It doesn't matter where the mark is or where the bullet is positioned in the throat - what does matter is that it be positioned consistently, the same position for each shot, and the punch mark facilitates that. Align the punch mark with a witness mark on the barrel breech or the bullet seater the same for each shot.
The punch mark hurts nothing, and in two cavity molds I'll position the punch mark at different spots in the cavities so I can tell which cavity the bullet comes from and segregate them accordingly - yet another bit of anal-ness that I feel, maybe, shaves another couple thousandths off of group sizes!
I have lots of molds that are marked primarily to indicate what cavities it dropped from. I own very few single cavity molds. Most are 4, 6, 8 or 10 cavity with a few 2 cavity. I have only done limited testing with a 45/70 BPCR rifles with zero accuracy improvement for indexing bullets. I have tested bullets with weight differences, visual voids and other flaws that had a noticeable decreasing in accuracy. Same for bad brass when the bullet is seated in the case. I haven't started play with breech seating bullets only.
Indexing the bullet to the case and the chamber doesn't hurt anything. On the flip side I don't understand how it benefits a "good" bullet? The only area I can see a possible benefit is if the bullet base is not perpendicular? For indexing to be a benefit there has to be a feature that is positioned the same every time.
Until I see actual evidence that bullet indexing makes a difference I am viewing it a nothing more than something that sounds good.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 02-08-2024 at 01:18 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I got a breach seater like that one in a box of stuff at an auction recently. Looks like it's for a 25/20 SS but I'm not sure. I don't have a 25/20 SS so it will make a neat wall hanger.
[QUOTE=M-Tecs;5685930]
Indexing the bullet to the case and the chamber doesn't hurt anything. On the flip side I don't understand how it benefits a "good" bullet? The only area I can see a possible benefit is if the bullet base is not perpendicular? For indexing to be a benefit there has to be a feature that is positioned the same every time.
[/QUOTE
The term "good bullet " is perhaps the operative term here. I'm relatively sure that in the old days the tolerances
that were capable of being met in a mold were significantly worse than today (although I've seen some significantly out of round new molds as well) Breech seating and indexing would have ensured that the bullet was introduced to the bore identically each time with whatever idiosyncracies of the molded bullet in the same orientation each time. I recognize, like Ralph Waldo Emerson that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. However sometimes its fun to succumb to the hobgoblin and act like you're back in the late 1800s early 1900s.
It simply eliminates one more variable. Successful bench shooting is all about eliminating variables , the minutiae as it were, not "what's your powder charge, and what bullet ya using?" Because bullet orientation is superfluous to one person doesn't mean it isn't to another.
And if you really want to get down to the nitty-gritty - Some of us shoot our bullets in the order cast. One of the old writers talked about this - Pope or someone else. Have to go look at my notes.
Sometimes what guys do is for mental peace of mind. It may not help accuracy, but if you do it it sure wont hurt accuracy. I once bought a huge lot of .45-70 Remington brass and every case had a notch in the rim at the same spot. I'm sure Remington didn't do it, and likely the previous owner didn't breech seat a .45-70, but he decided to eliminate any doubts by indexing every case.
There are things that can't always be proven positively to help, but there are plenty of things that can be proven. If you're one of the best shooters around you're probably doing as much as possible to maintain consistency in loading and shooting, just to eliminate anything you can control.
Would you fire each case indexed several times to determine the best orientation to mark permanently for each one so that you could fire several to get a group?
Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.
When I indexed cases I inspected them for straightness and concentricity. On the banana shaped 284 brass converted to 6.5x284 I put the high spot up. Necks were turned so the concentricity issues went away. If I didn't neck turn, I would have tried to have the thick neck down.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Nah. In my breech seated single shot bench guns I start a virgin case oriented via a witness mark on the barrel tenon and a randomly located notch on the case rim, and put it there for every subsequent shot. If I shot fixed ammo then I would take the sort of precautions espoused by M-Tecs.
No. Since the case is going to fire form to the chamber the very first firing, there's no advantage to checking it at several indexing points. If there's a change the case would form to each point when fired again.
There's no sizing, or anything else done to the case once it's fired the first time. Just deprime and prime it, then charge and shoot. I'm personally not sure indexing changes accuracy, but it doesn't cost anything to do so, and gives peace of mind to many folks.
Not breech seating or cast but my experience with the 5,500 rounds of really bad Winchester 284 brass formed into 6.5/284 taught me that if the case walls are that uneven they don't expand or stretch evenly. At the time that was the only brass available. The more you fired them the more banana shaped they became. If available I only use Lapua brass for serious accuracy requirements like long range competition.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
And that is why I don't share load data on public ranges.
Start talking about paper patching, animal fat greases, card and felt wads, greased felt wads and you lose them, start talking about drop tubes and especially compression plugs to pack black powder to uniform density and they flip.
Best just lie and say you order ammo from BACO at $90 a box so they quit asking questions.
Even at a long range match you can talk with many shooters and get a lot of different answers to what works best for BPCR shooting! And the most knowledgeable will usually preface their replies with, "Well this is what works for me".
There are so many different methods or techniques used shooting BP that there's no way to say only one is right, or works best. Not just the powder, and bullets, but also how it's loaded, and what you do between shots.
You can watch two very skilled shooters at the line, and both getting great groups, but doing things a little different.
I don't know anything about modern high pressure smokeless long range shooting, or the equipment or loads. But I bet one thing is the same for all kinds of shooting, and that's consistency. Those who are the most consistent with loads, equipment, components, and shooting practices will have the best chance of being great shooters.
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