Poor man's "Express" gun

[schutzen-jager]

That's why I mentioned "large, dangerous game" - and 50 yards could be a functional user limit with a single set of express sights; e.g. 500 NE or larger on grizzly or moose, etc. It would be relatively easy to check alignment on a double (or an over under) using slugs with the original barrel setup.

Here is the ML version, still pretty pricey: https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/...kodiak-express

totally agree that it is very easy to check barrel alignment, regulation on a double, but almost impossible for a user or machinist
to correct w/o vast investment in time + money -

[HWooldridge]

I'm sitting here blowing smoke rings into the air but one way might be to utilize a plug at the end of the shotgun barrels with a slightly offset bore that could be turned to regulate the rifle barrel inserts. Something similar to an internally threaded choke in concept, where a bit of rotation would pull on the rifle barrel and allow some adjustment. The "chokes" could be pinned or otherwise locked into place after shot regulation.

Just a thought - I have some years of machining experience but am not a gunsmith in any shape or form.

[schutzen-jager]

jmho - that would depend on the double barrel + rib construction - anything pulling or moving barrels could be a costly mistake - most all are very thin walled near muzzle - some are soft soldered, some silver soldered, some brazed, + some mono bloc with floating ribs - extremely easy to separate barrels + ribs if not careful + knowledgeable - it was a common happening for barrels to come apart when some smiths inadvertently tried to hot blue the barrels in hot caustic solutions - like i stated they can be regulated but it will be very time consuming, expensive, or both -

[longbow]

The Baikal .45-70's were made with eccentric collars inside the shotgun muzzle so they could be turned to slightly move the insert for regulation. It appears from the pics of them that they uded two different systems. One is somewhat external and the other looks to be enitriely internal though hard to tell from the few pics I've seen. But either an eccentric collar or turning the inserts to be slightly eccentric should work as long as they can be adjusted to regulate then locked in position.

Having said that, if it was easy and worked well then the high end double rifle makers would be using that system but they are not! For us peasants that can't afford a high end double rifle we have to make do and eccentric collars or eccentri liners should work reasonably well.

A reason I mention the idea of a cape gun was simply because it should be fairly easy to get one barrel sited and grouping reasonably well then the other barrel could be used for buckshot, two ball ot Tri-Ball loads or even slugs. I haven't shot one of the guns with two rear sights but I have to think that it wouldn't be hard to pick the wrong sight at the wrong time when hunting or defending against dangerous game (bears?). Buckshot or multi ball loads don't require precision sighting to be effective.

Longbow

[Rusty Goose]

Those barrel liners chambered in .45-70 are really intriguing! I wonder if an old Belgian double with exposed hammers and damascus barrels would hold up with some BP rounds... asking for a friend.

[HWooldridge]

The Baikal .45-70's were made with eccentric collars inside the shotgun muzzle so they could be turned to slightly move the insert for regulation. It appears from the pics of them that they uded two different systems. One is somewhat external and the other looks to be enitriely internal though hard to tell from the few pics I've seen. But either an eccentric collar or turning the inserts to be slightly eccentric should work as long as they can be adjusted to regulate then locked in position.

Having said that, if it was easy and worked well then the high end double rifle makers would be using that system but they are not! For us peasants that can't afford a high end double rifle we have to make do and eccentric collars or eccentri liners should work reasonably well.

A reason I mention the idea of a cape gun was simply because it should be fairly easy to get one barrel sited and grouping reasonably well then the other barrel could be used for buckshot, two ball ot Tri-Ball loads or even slugs. I haven't shot one of the guns with two rear sights but I have to think that it wouldn't be hard to pick the wrong sight at the wrong time when hunting or defending against dangerous game (bears?). Buckshot or multi ball loads don't require precision sighting to be effective.

Longbow

That's what I get for trying to have an original thought - oh well, another patent idea out the window...always a bridesmaid and never a bride...

[wwmartin]

There's a Baikal/ Remington 45-70 listed on Gone Broker (listing #1035060200). Picture #7 shows the regulating device under the barrel. There nothing at the muzzle to regulate that I can detect on the one I have, just the normal band to attach the barrels to each other. I'm glad I bought mine when they were selling for around $750 about 15 years ago.
I took it to the range once along with a IAB Sharps and some 535gr cast loaded for the Sharp's . Weighing in at 6#10oz I will wake you up.
My other double rifle is a Sabatti in 9.3×74r that one I haven't fired. I built a rolling block in that chambering about a year before I found the Sabatti.
My thoughts on the Baikal are not to abuse it with heavy loads but it's been fired so will not become a safe queen. I don't hunt so at 75 I'm not interested in beating myself up wit heavy loads. I haven't spent enough time with either rifle to check regulation.

Bill

[longbow]

I have only seen pictures of the Baikals but it appears that there are different arrangments at the muzzles:





I read of an adjuster under the barrels for the right hand barrel to regulate so I am guessing that would be the arrangement in the first pic above.

It appears that the liners are adjustable at the muzzle in the second pic.

Maybe someone that has one or has knowledge will clarify?

I'm kinda thinking of looking for a used one but I will guess that they are pretty rare here. The Chaszel inserts would be another option but a guy would have to make his own adjuster if regulation wasn't good with the shotgun.

Longbow

[jaguarxk120]

You can try looking for a Lanber O/U 12 Bore gun.
It was made years ago, 21 inch barrels and a total weight of 6 pounds, very nasty to shoot.
But the bottom barrel was on at 50 yards and the top barrel was spot on at 100 yards.
That is using the Lyman 525 grain sabot slug and a load of Blue Dot driving it.
I think they imported by Cherry's Gun shop and closed out by CDNN.

[HWooldridge]

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews...anber-sporter/

Never heard of this brand but seems to be of good quality.

[elmacgyver0]

I would have to have side hammers to trip my trigger.
The Chinese make cheap side by side coach guns with mule ears that would be a cheap starting point for one of these.

[swamp]

I have one of the Baikals. I am quite pleased with it. It has the under barrel regulator. Ha a low power scope on it. Shoots well and alot of fun. Haven't run any heavy stuff thru it, that is what the No. 1 is for. It really likes the collar button boolits.
swamp

[elmacgyver0]

I went and ordered a pair of the 24 inch inserts in .45-70.
Got to quit reading this stuff, it's getting expensive.

[schutzen-jager]

like i stated in previous posts it will be expensive -
back in mid sixties when i started whitetail hunting, 12 ga buck shot was the only legal weapon - did some experimentation + found # 1 buck was most accurate + effective at 50 yards in my Savage 311 - a decade or so later the state authorized slug usage -tried different foster + Brenneke, could not get any to shoot both barrels to point of aim, so 2/3 of my kills were with buck shot - after LEE came out with their slug molds - tried every conceivable load in many doubles Baker Batavia, Ithaca Flues, J. Manton, Fox BST, Stevens 511, + Savage 311 - they were all made accurate with slug in one barrel only + never in both - finally gave up + my last 1/3 deer were killed with Ithaca DSPS smooth bore with the Lee slugs - -

[elmacgyver0]

Actually, I was being a little bit sarcastic.
$314.00 delivered to my door, I don't feel all that expensive for two .45-70 barrels.
The reason I still work part time is so I can afford to buy a few toys.
I work a little bit; my wife works a little bit; we both like to spend a bit of money from time to time.
We are both on Social Security and with our part time work have not so far had to dip into our retirement funds, knock on wood.
Just living the dream.

[longbow]

elmacgyver0 please post your results with those .45-70 barrels! I have been thinking about this for quite some time but not taken the plunge due to limited toy budget (I am retired) but I am planning to give it a go if it works reasonably well. You have taken the plunge!

I will be looking forward to a range report!

Even if only one barrel at a time is reasonably accurate I would consider an insert in one barrel and shot in the other barrel like a cape gun. Of course these inserts are easily removeable too so the original shotgun is not permaenetly altered other than barrel length.

I will be watching!

Longbow

[country gent]

Im getting closer to starting this project my self.
Im thinking a step at the muzzle and eccentric bushings.
Blanks will be turned to a snug fit in chambers and rims. barrels will be .010-.015 clearance in bores. or 6-48 holes taped every 60* around muzzles these will allow Zeroing to the sights. I can then solder the blanks in place when set. starting with 24" barrels once soldered they end can be cut off at 20" and finished then crowned. The backs of the barrels will need to be cut out for the new extractor and that made. My concern with the bushings are when you turn them you will not only adjust side to side but elevation as well
Im going to use a 20 gauge for this so will have roughly .615 liners the inserts will be loctited into the chambers

Im being conservative but this conversion is going to be 32 S&W long. But have considered 32-20. I want a lighter caliber for around the place and maybe squirrel hunting. Plus in the lighter calibers I can get away with making the iron sights and epoxying them on. Im leaning more to a low power scope in the 2-2 1/2X range with no objective bell for the traditional look.
The donor gun has double triggers, Im afraid the recoil of the 32 Long wont be enough to reset a single trigger.
I may inlett a couple plates in the wrist action area of the butt stock to give the appearance of the Holland and Holland royal.

[challenger_i]

There may be method in your madness: Cessna used a similar idea for adjusting the wing incidence of their Century series aircraft.

I'm sitting here blowing smoke rings into the air but one way might be to utilize a plug at the end of the shotgun barrels with a slightly offset bore that could be turned to regulate the rifle barrel inserts. Something similar to an internally threaded choke in concept, where a bit of rotation would pull on the rifle barrel and allow some adjustment. The "chokes" could be pinned or otherwise locked into place after shot regulation.

Just a thought - I have some years of machining experience but am not a gunsmith in any shape or form.

[elmacgyver0]

I have two possible guns that would work.
I pretty much ruled out my old Damascus double with the rabbit ear hammers.
I have a cheap Chinese Zhongzhou Machine Works double coach gun with rabbit ear hammers and 20-inch barrels that is itching to be a double express rifle.
I think I only paid a little over $250 bucks for it.
I ordered the 24-inch inserts, I will see how crazy it looks with them sticking proud of the barrels.
I can always cut them down, but prefer to keep the length, we will see. Lots of options.

[longbow]

Before you order or at least receive those inserts you might want to check the locations of their O-rings. That is if they are the Chaszel inserts. Those inserts use O-rings around the insert to center them in the shotgun bore so if the muzzle end O-ring is within 6" of the muzzle you will be cutting it off or it will be sticking out of the bore.

Okay then I just looked and yes, the O-ring grooves are near the muzzle so you might want to cancel and re-order 18" inserts or be prepared to have new O-Ring groove(s) machined or use a sleeve of some sort.



Longbow