The Old Argument: Actual Brinell Measurement/Hardness

[mehavey]

The ball diamter and the force used are the defining elements of the Brinell test.

Were the (current) LEE tester to not to dead nuts duplicate certified Lyman#2 as
BHN 15 (over many samples/over many years), I'd not be drundling around trying
to figure out why it's very consistently reading 5.7-6.0 for what is certified 30-1.
("supposedly" to BHN 9)

And were I not also able to read the sample indent diameters very precisely/repeatably
using both scanner and microscope, I'd also not be scratching around trying for explanation.

But right now ... `tis a puzzlement.

[Shopdog]

Do you have a name or type of the $6k equipment piece?

[mehavey]

I'm going to a Lab (not buying the equip)

[Shopdog]

I misunderstood... reread the op and it still looks like someone suggested a $6k machine? The reason I asked was I'm looking for a used Wilson hardness tester and they're in the $1500 range. Grizzly sells a,and am assuming here.... a chyna copy. Would prefer the real McCoy.

[Larry Gibson]

Quite frankly, I find a +/- 0.5 BHN measurement to be quite acceptable when mixing up the same alloy. Based on taking 3 impressions per sample on many tests, I find trying to say a single 10.3 BHN measurement of an alloy indicates that sample is softer than a 10.5 measurement on another sample is futile.

[Shopdog]

Larry,just to blurt it out.... the only measurement I've found as an "absolute" is my torque wrench readings on slump,or plastic deformation. And this is only "practical" on longer rifle bullets where bending can be a major problem. Heck,I cast for 30 something years before getting a lead thermometer. And 5 of those was wearing out a Coleman stove. You know,just sayin.

[Shopdog]

But in these tool's defense ....

Our impact tester does show some very interesting results. Besides being highly repeatable.... and fun,smashing culls. So fully supportive of OP looking for a science lesson.

There's also some interesting things about penetration WRT tester contact point shape/size that whilst "may" not help in the search for truths in BHN,it can help understand some early upset on bullet points.

I know when machining custom TP's for an adj cup end set screw.... which depending on the screws set height,and torque to yield #'s... some dang interesting things can be seen on the nose forming. Mainly the swage propagation. Early on I'd have bet money on certain outcomes...only to lose that bet. Meaning what you think you know,ain't always what happens. The chemistry and dynamics may not add up... but it repeats,and repeats.

[mehavey]

I shipped a 30-1 sample off to AST this evening.
We'll see what comes back . . . .

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,just to blurt it out.... the only measurement I've found as an "absolute" is my torque wrench readings on slump,or plastic deformation. And this is only "practical" on longer rifle bullets where bending can be a major problem. Heck,I cast for 30 something years before getting a lead thermometer. And 5 of those was wearing out a Coleman stove. You know,just sayin.

Yup, some parts of casting bullets and shooting them isn't rocket science. However, some parts are, just need to understand the difference......just sayin.

[M-Tecs]

I misunderstood... reread the op and it still looks like someone suggested a $6k machine? The reason I asked was I'm looking for a used Wilson hardness tester and they're in the $1500 range. Grizzly sells a,and am assuming here.... a chyna copy. Would prefer the real McCoy.

Watch Facebook Market Place and the local machine tool action sites. Ebay at $1.5K and shipping is far more than most non-machine shops are willing to pay.

I found a Wilson 3JR hardness tester for $300. It was hardly used 100% complete with extra penetrators and 8 certified test standard blocks. Listed weight is 325 pounds. I lifted it into the truck by myself. That's about the max I can do by myself.

Pics for reference here.
https://www.brystartools.com/wilson-...r-refurbished/

[Shopdog]

Yup M-Tecs..... that would look SOOO nice sitting peacefully in our shop. Thanks.

[Digital Dan]

Have been using a Lee tester for a long time and find it perfectly useful. Whether or not it is spot on is irrelevant to me. What matters at the end of the day is how well the end product flies. I'm not a stranger to 5 shot one hole groups with various cartridges, but haven't a clue how to post pictures here.

One of the annoying aspects of the Lee tool is holding the magnifier steady. I constructed a small wooden holder for both metal sample and magnifier that works quite well. Not complicated at all.

FWIW, I don't have to use anything over 12 BHN for the .30-30 and max loads with a Lyman 311041. The levermatic shoots 5 in 1" at 50 yards. Once the alloy mix is determined it's simply a matter of mixing the recipe and casting while the Lee tool gathers dust.

[popper]

Nonsense.

[mehavey]

Nonsense.

nonsense ?
In general... or in some specific aspect ?

[savage308]

nonsense ?
In general... or in some specific aspect ?

I have used the lee tester for many years and love it. I have a magnifying glass headband and use a regular digital caliper
And it works great for me

[MT Gianni]

Similar to lawn mowers, if you have only used a push hand mower it is the best there is. If you have $10K to spend you can't be satisfied with less than a zero turn.

[Larry Gibson]

I've found the Lee may not be the best there is nor the most expensive. However, using it in the toy microscope like I do I find it more than adequate.

[Shopdog]

This cost me a little bit over half the price of the Lee. Think cabine tree on STEROIDS..

[KenH]

Shopdog, could you provide more info on that hardness tester? Looks interesting, but looks like it uses a spring for pressure rather than weights? I use the HR150A clone for hardness testing. It's normally used in the 60 Rc range with a diamond penetrator for knife blades. I made a penetrator using a 1/2" ball to test lead using the formula:


I use the 150kg weight to make the indentation, then measure the diameter of indentation with a stereo microscope at 20X to 40X power. I find the results usually agree pretty close with accepted numbers. I'm NOT saying they're "lab quality", but are repeatable for my use.

[Shopdog]

Just a beefed/accurized cabine tree.

It functions flawlessly but to be honest the vertical impact tester has much more potential. Mainly because it makes direct comparisons between the shape of the boolit,or bullet..or anything you want to test such as annealed cases. And there's also the torque wrenches that get used with Lyman 450's.

Not stating this as "fact"...or even a theory but; just a way I see the dynamics of launch and subsequent travel of the bullet. The impact tester is extremely important for launch,and there's more to it,becoming clearer the more I use it.... that alloy AND shape effects the launch,or how the bullet reacts to the initial "hit". Then once it's going,other factors come into play.

It reminds me of a race shock... they have generally two "circuits" that can be adjusted. A high speed shock like the edge of a pot hole(the launch or hit on a bullet)...

And a low speed circuit like going over a wave in the rd(this is a bullet's reaction to the lands going down the barrel). So while te BHN numbers are an insight.... it "may" not represent the challenges in of itself.

Throw in lube as part of the latter circuit. Yes there is some support on launch but not much compared to it's effect later in the cycle.

Edit to add annealing info...