Remington 30-06 cast boolet help!!

[crackerjack57]

Good morning all. I need some help with my Remington 700 series 30-06. Ive been casting for 10+ years so I know what im doing but it seems no matter what i do, I just cant get this rifle to shoot cast booklets well. The only bullet that shoots well is a 200 gn commercial ELDX bullet over 41 gn of H380. It gives me 2127 FPS.
I cast for my Sako and Tikka and have for years and get consistent 1 1/2” groups at 100y using the Lee 180 gn round nose gas checked powder coated boolet over 33 gn of 3031. BNH about 11-13. And that one gets me 2250 fps in either of the Sako or Tikka. I also just bought the Lee 200 gn round nose mold. Just tried it and just running the same powder charge as the 200 gn ELDX got a 2 1/2” group without even tweaking the load, that was also powder coated, gas checked and all cast booklets are sized to .309.

Have any of you out there had any issues getting a 180 gn Lee boolet like im casting and having issues with a good group? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also have any of you out there with Remington 30-06 700 series bolt action rifles specifically had accuracy issues.

My goal is 1 1/2” groups for hunting deer at a distance of 50-300 yards, about the 2200-2250 fps. The powders that I have on hand are unique, Tite group, SR7625, 1680, 4227, 2400, 3031 and H380. Any other powder suggestions that you have on my part will require me to search out those powders and as im up here in Canada………… powders are tough to come by these days and primers are right up there with UN-OBTAINIUM, Hens teeth and trying to find my Ying-yang!

[centershot]

Since you've been successful with the other two rifles (They're both '06's, right?) I'll aussme your case prep and loading procedures are good. If so, I'd drop the powder charge back and work up, if that's unsuccessful then perhaps try a different powder. Remember, you've changed a major component, that change dictates a new work-up!

[crackerjack57]

Since you've been successful with the other two rifles (They're both '06's, right?) I'll aussme your case prep and loading procedures are good. If so, I'd drop the powder charge back and work up, if that's unsuccessful then perhaps try a different powder. Remember, you've changed a major component, that change dictates a new work-up!

Thanx for the reply. And yes. All rifles in question are 30-06’s. Same case prep and everything.

[Nobade]

Make a chamber cast and see how straight the throat is. My bet is it's not.

[Kraschenbirn]

Assuming that your M700 has its original barrel, that's a 1-10 twist so, at 2200 fps, you're pushing the top end of the velocity range for most .30 cal. cast boolits. I shoot that same 200 gr. Lee from a '98 Krag carbine at a bit over 1900 fps and, off the bench, 100-yd groups stay inside of 2" with iron sights.

Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet Handbook shows 'best accuracy' with a 200 gr. Lyman boolit loaded over 29.0 gr 4227 for 1992 fps.

Bill

[MUSTANG]

1st thing I would do is try sizing to .310 instead of .309. It's a quick check not requiring a lot of additional work, testing, and experimenting.

[crackerjack57]

Make a chamber cast and see how straight the throat is. My bet is it's not.

I hear what you’re saying but don’t understand on what I’d be looking for regarding a straight throat? The 200 gn ELDX shoots fine?

[crackerjack57]

Shouldn’t an original 1:10 twist barrel in a 30-06 be able to shoot anything from 110-230 gns? Therefore lobbing a 180 gn at 2250 or so be well within the wheelhouse of possibilities and not out of scope?

[crackerjack57]

Thanx bill I’ll try that 4227 load.

[waksupi]

I'm betting you have a diameter problem. Slip a bullet into the case mouth of a fired case. Is there a slight resistance? If not, your bullet is too small.

[Nobade]

I hear what you’re saying but don’t understand on what I’d be looking for regarding a straight throat? The 200 gn ELDX shoots fine?

You're looking for the rifling coming to the mouth of the case on one side and starting a good bit further away on the other. Jacketed bullets are relatively tolerant of that to a point, cast bullets are not.

[Kraschenbirn]

Shouldn’t an original 1:10 twist barrel in a 30-06 be able to shoot anything from 110-230 gns? Therefore lobbing a 180 gn at 2250 or so be well within the wheelhouse of possibilities and not out of scope?

It's a matter of boolit distortion from centifrugal force. Stability ceiling for lead alloy projectiles is somewhere around 225,000 RPM and, with a 1-10 twist that translates to approximately 2100 fps. Higher velocities may be achieved with extra-hard alloys but that's pretty much the accepted upper limit for Lyman #2 or similar. Larry Gibson...our 'ballistics guru'...posted a definitive explaination (including the math) at one time but, unfortunately, I don't have a link for that thread.

BTW: As others have posted, I've found I obtain best accuracy sizing to .310 or .311.

Bill

[Dusty Bannister]

I would suggest that since you have not provided any slug measurements you might consider inserting the nose of the bullet in the muzzle of this rifle and see if it is snug or wobbles. Wobble means the nose is too small for the bore and slumps to the side when fired, then being bent and out of balance it will not fly straight.

With rifles, most will shoot a cast bullet diameter of .002 or .003 larger than the groove diameter if the loaded round will chamber easily.

Are you seating the cast bullet out enough to just begin to engage the lands in the barrel? Jacketed bullets like some "jump" between the nose and engaging the lands. Cast bullets need to be supported or they will be laying in the bottom of the chamber and hit the lands at an angle when fired. Not a lot of difference, but worth removing that variable if possible.

It might be helpful to let folks know what alloy you are working with so it can be determined if it is up to the task. All guns are not the same, I hope you have worked up your loads instead of just saying if it works in two, it should work in the third, and obviously you are not getting it to work. You might have already done the work, but just have not mentioned it.

[rockrat]

How old is the gun? I bought one back in the 70's that the action/barrel were poorly inletted and the barrel contacted the stock.
Shot poorly till I re-bedded it.

[crackerjack57]

To answer some questions….. I’m not sure of the date of manufacturer of this particular rifle. I bought it used. In terms of working up a load, honestly I have not. I’ve used the same rounds that work well in both the Saco and the Tica and expected it to do close to the same in the Remington. I could go a little above or a little below and see what happens there. As to if the rifling engages on one side of the bullet, a little sooner than the other, I don’t know. I will need to make a slug of that particular throat of the barrel. All of my rounds are loaded that when I chamber the cartridge, the bullet is slightly engaged into the rifling. I do not have any jump before the bullet is fired, and gets seated into the lands of the barrel. When I push a bullet into the chamber of the barrel, it is quite snug in there so the fit is good and tight. I could get a larger sizing die and size to .310 or .311 and try that as to the barrel inletting, I’ve already gone through all of that. The barrel is free floating in that stock. There is nothing that would touch the barrel so I don’t think that’s the problem.

[Bigslug]

Lyman claims that 20 to 27 grains of 2400 will propel the 173 grain cast 311041 bullet from 1750 to 2140 fps. I've just started tinkering with it behind a 185 grainer and am having good accuracy in the 1900-2000 fps range.

As has been said, going much faster than that with a 1-10" twist is going to exceed the structural limits of a cast bullet. I hit that wall somewhere around 2200-2300 fps with a CZ-550 as the test platform. Could be that the variables inside your 700 hit it sooner.

[Bass Ackward]

My Remmy hates bore rides unless you fit them well and use normal cast level loads. Mine’s a 90s production with thin rifling. (poor support?). Had to use a conventional cast design.

[crackerjack57]

Lyman claims that 20 to 27 grains of 2400 will propel the 173 grain cast 311041 bullet from 1750 to 2140 fps. I've just started tinkering with it behind a 185 grainer and am having good accuracy in the 1900-2000 fps range.

As has been said, going much faster than that with a 1-10" twist is going to exceed the structural limits of a cast bullet. I hit that wall somewhere around 2200-2300 fps with a CZ-550 as the test platform. Could be that the variables inside your 700 hit it sooner.

I’m glad to hear that 2400 could work with this weight of boolit without going over pressure. I thought that 2400 might be too fast. I’m happy with the 3031 powder but it would use a lot less powder than what I’m using now. Now dissecting what I think your saying regarding twist rate, the Remington is a 1:10 twist. The Sako and tikka I believe are 1:11 or 1:12 twist rate. Therefore getting 2250 fps and good results may differ with a faster twist of the Remington. 2250 fps might be the top end for the Sako and tikka. Possibly slower might be the answer for the Remington.

I’m appreciative of all the input so far. I will look at all these things. Also look at what was suggested about making sure that the lead in at the chamber possibly throwing the bullet off somehow isn’t an issue. Not sure if it was how to fix that. I will need to also slug the chamber at some point. See if there might be an issue there.

[charlie b]

Twist rate and bullet fit.

Bore riders in my .308 shoot really well (Lee 180, RCBS 165SIL, Lyman 211299, Acc 210E). Checking fit is simple. Chamber a dummy round and then remove it. Look for the impression of rifling on the bullet and where the taper of the throat engages the rifling. I usually mark a bullet with a Sharpie to better see the marks. Both should be even. Best is if the bullet is hard to remove from the chamber.

Twist rate. I also have a 1-10 twist and going over 2000fps is a crap shoot. Some powders and bullets handle it, some don't. I've shot the Acc 210E at 2300fps and on warm days it works. On cold days it doesn't. For best accuracy all around I limit the vel to under 2000fps and usually find a sweet spot around 1900fps.

FWIW, my Garand also has a 1-10 twist and has the same kind of limits.

Last, powders like 3031, 4198 and 2400 with lower load densities are position sensitive. Either need a filler or make sure to load carefully so the primer is covered well. I shoot from a bench so I tip the bullets up and then load (single shot) carefully. The Garand gets tipped up after each shot.

[Thumbcocker]

Aren't Tikka barrels 1:11 twist?