Extra Low Cost options for volume shooting

[jdgabbard]

I wasn’t suggesting that piles of 30 Luger were at the local range. Rather that you could form 9mm into 30 Luger and use that. I believe it may come up short but my understanding is that your goal was something easy to form and use a 30 caliber bullet. That’s why I suggested the 30 Luger. So it will be short brass. The neck will be really short probably.

Neck wouldn't be long enough. 30 Luger is 7.65x21, so the 9x19 isn't going to give you enough neck. You might be able to make it work, but I doubt it. You might be able to use 9x21 or 9x23 brass to make it work. But I doubt you'll find loads of that a the range. You can make them from .223, and that is actually really easy. I make 30 Mauser / 30 Tok from .223 all the time. I use a redding trim die to form the bottleneck, trim and file, drill the necks out with an 'N' bit in a special jig, size/deprime, back to the trim die to file once more, then they're ready for loading. Sounds like a lot of work, but it's actually not bad at all. I do about 50 at a time, and it takes me 20-30 minutes in batch. You could do the 30 Luger the same way. And I tend to agree, that is probably what I would do if I were wanting a smaller efficient cartridge that didn't cost much to load. But P Flados wants to do his one thing. I'm all for watching the journey. I might even learn a thing or two...

[dtknowles]

Looks like a Morris Tube round without the rim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.297/230_Morris

Tim

[uscra112]

For the above: And 30 Luger brass can be gathered in large quantities for free at your local range?

Absolutely. The .30 Luger is just 9mm brass necked down as you have done. Same body diameter, same length according to Barnes. Yours has a longer neck, is all.

[uscra112]

I might have suggested necking down a bit more, to about .299 I.D., and using a 299152 or 299153 heeled bullet. This would eliminate resizing the case every time. Decap, recap, drop a powder charge, place a bullet on the case mouth and run it into the crimp die. This is how I do .32 Long Colt. The mould would have to be custom, nobody makes them anymore.

[jdgabbard]

Absolutely. The .30 Luger is just 9mm brass necked down as you have done. Same body diameter, same length according to Barnes. Yours has a longer neck, is all.

Said it above, but I'll say it again. You cannot make .30 Luger from 9mm Luger / 9x19. The brass isn't long enough to form the caseneck.

[uscra112]

Well, that isn't the first time that Barnes has gotten it wrong.

Not even the fourth.

[jdgabbard]

Well, that isn't the first time that Barnes has gotten it wrong.

Not even the fourth.

Yeah, not surprised. I've seen info where they also claim that 30 Mauser is a stouter cartridge than 30 Tok. Technically, you could form the case from 9mm, but you'd have a case neck that wouldn't be long enough to hold the bullet. I've seen some pictures where someone did it, and it comedically short. You really need 9x21 or 9x23 to make it from a proper case head diameter. You can also make it from 30Mauser/30Tok, as well as .223/.221 though with a slightly smaller casehead. It'll work, but it isn't the best solution.

[P Flados]

Said it above, but I'll say it again. You cannot make .30 Luger from 9mm Luger / 9x19. The brass isn't long enough to form the caseneck.

On the other hand, a 30 luger die set with ~3/16" trimmed off of the bottom would work well for 30 ELC dies.

A 30 luger chamber reamer run in just enough plus a general purpose 30 cal necking reamer could be used to make a repeatable "standard" 30 ELC.

[P Flados]

Ok, first range report:

Things started off great. I started with 1.98 gr of Lovex D032 (SW Clean Shot) under the 55 gr BLL NLG. First three shots went into a single hole at 15 yards, probably 3/8" center to center.

I fired ~ 5 more shots while adjusting the scope.

Then 5 at 25 yards. I got a slightly larger one hole group for 4 shots with 1 flyer. Then I went to 49 yards, and a 3 shot group opened up completely. Back to 20 yards and got a 5 shot group about 1".

Note that the Quickload prediction for the above is 921 fps at 5100 psi. Fired brass did not really "fireform" to match chamber shoulder.

I then fired 2 rounds of a hotter load. 85 gr ASBB PC coated bullet and 3.3 gr of D032. Quickload prediction of 1274 fps at 23800 psi. Fired brass did "fireform" to match chamber shoulder. Neck OD of fired cases was 0.344" (~0.005" bigger than planned). Extraction was sticky. Inspection showed that polishing out the first 3/16" of the chamber would probably fix the extraction.

When extracting the second hotter load, I did note movement of the barrel insert inside the sleeve.

After shooting the hotter load, I went back to 15 yard and fired a 5 shot group with a spread of 1" or so. There was also a POI shift.

I am thinking I do need to thread the end of the barrel and make a matching nut/thread protector. I need to go through my taps and dies. I am not sure what I have that could work.

I will also try dropping down on the powder charge some. The prediction for 1.7 gr is 808 fps and 1.5 gr is 725 fps. I keep all my "standard loads" at repeatable settings on my RCBS powder measure.

[uscra112]

On the other hand, a 30 luger die set with ~3/16" trimmed off of the bottom would work well for 30 ELC dies.

A 30 luger chamber reamer run in just enough plus a general purpose 30 cal necking reamer could be used to make a repeatable "standard" 30 ELC.

True 'dat. If I were still into this kind of thing I would try it. Club range hosts multiple PDs for training, hence 9mm brass frequently forms a yellow carpet in the outdoor pistol bays.

Looks like <Pflados> got some decent results, first time out.

What with the 5100 PSI pressure per Quickload, this would even do in a Stevens 1915 Favorite, or a solid frame #4 Rolling Block. Bolt thrust about the same as some of my .25 Stevens HV loads.

[Hick]

The man wants a project. Let him have at it. I’m looking forward to the results.

My reaction too. However, I'm not interested in the results, as such, because my idea of low cost shooting is not about inventing something cheap to shoot, but rather shooting the guns I like as cheaply as possible. I'm not gonna give up my M1 or my SMLE or my Mauser, etc, etc, etc, just to be able to shoot a lower cost cartridge. As it is, I can afford to shoot in volume (10,000 + rounds per year) and shoot the guns I like.

[rbuck351]

I would probably go with a 38 spl case run into a 7.62 x 25 or 30 Luger die and trimmed to a usable length neck. This would give a rimmed 30 Luger or 30 tok. One could shorten the sizer die to limit case capacity if you wanted a smaller capacity but for simplicity it would only take .1 or .2 grs more powder to get the velocity of a smaller case.

This has got me to thinking of making another liner for my 10" 44 mag contender in 7.62x25R. I have made three already, a 22lr, a 22mag and a 22 KH.

[uscra112]

Rimmed of course better for Contenders (and my boys' rifles) but one of his constraints was to use the buckets of 9mm brass that goes to waste at public ranges. .38 Special brass not nearly so ubiquitous.

[jdgabbard]

I would probably go with a 38 spl case run into a 7.62 x 25 or 30 Luger die and trimmed to a usable length neck. This would give a rimmed 30 Luger or 30 tok. One could shorten the sizer die to limit case capacity if you wanted a smaller capacity but for simplicity it would only take .1 or .2 grs more powder to get the velocity of a smaller case.

This has got me to thinking of making another liner for my 10" 44 mag contender in 7.62x25R. I have made three already, a 22lr, a 22mag and a 22 KH.

Been done dozens of times. There is even standardized names and reamers available. You're looking for the 30 Reece, 30 Badger, or 30/357.

However, that is outside his intent on this one. He's looking for something even cheaper than that to shoot.

[ebb]

This is great!!!! I love the ELC idea. Could a cut off 223 case be shoved into a 30 luger die at full length or even longer than full length to make an extended length ELC that could get 22 hornet velocities? Or would cutting off a 300BO die be a better way to do the same thing? I liked the idea of making a small case, but not too small so I could load it hotter in case i wanted to small game hunt with it.

[P Flados]

This is great!!!! I love the ELC idea. Could a cut off 223 case be shoved into a 30 luger die at full length or even longer than full length to make an extended length ELC that could get 22 hornet velocities? Or would cutting off a 300BO die be a better way to do the same thing? I liked the idea of making a small case, but not too small so I could load it hotter in case i wanted to small game hunt with it.

As previously noted, there is the 30 Badger made from running 38 Sp into a 30 luger die. Cutting off 223 and doing the same thing will give you a rimless version. A rimless version would be better for most bolt guns and would work Ok in a contender with a rimless extractor installed. 30 Badger barrels are a standard order item from MGM (https://matchgrademachine.com/chambers-list/#30cal).

[ebb]

Ive got a bunch of 38 spcl brass but I have a bunch of revolvers that I load for so I don't think I want to use it even though it would be the easy button or so it seems to me. When I build, I will use a small ring Mauser or one of several Arisaka actions I have. Would like a mini Mauser or CZ and use the tiny action they make but buying something goes against the whole low cost idea this was started for. I made 30BR cases from 308win using a form die that a friend let me use and I have pushed the shoulder back till a have a 30BR case with a neck almost an inch long. It was an RCBS case forming die. where does someone find a die like that, for pushing the shoulder back on 223 cases? if I were to try and make one would I have to make it tight enough that I would have to figure the taper of the case at the point where I want the new shoulder to end up, or could it be sloppier than that ?

[rbuck351]

The reason I would use a 38spl case is I have a 5 gal bucket of 38spl and it's very easy to form it to a rimmed 30 Luger. Also, I still find 38spl in the local gravel pits and such. If you want it with a smaller case capacity, shorten a 30 Luger die. I like simple.

Better yet, shorten a 256 win die set until it only holds 2 or 3grs of bulleye and use about a 50gr boolit. Save lead and powder.

[Scrounge]

You are starting to piss me off!!! I decided long ago NO MORE TOYS. But guess what? I have spent a few hours looking at high end airsoft guns since reading your post this morning.

Joined the Airsoft forum looking to tap their knowledge. I think the grandson will have a blast with one. Keeping a ping pong ball bouncing with a semi-auto might be fun for this old man too!! Lots of ways to have fun trigger time on a budget if we think outside the box.

Don't just think outside the box, throw away the box!

[beechbum444]

I like all the different ideas.....went down this rabbit hole.....the 32 s and w long fits the bill ...red dot, tite group ......kinda wish there was a lighter bullet ....