Turpentine Safety?

[justindad]

Curiosity got the better of me and I have designed a series of experiments intended to develop a recipe for making liquid bullet lube. First, I need to know if it’s excessively dangerous.
*
Here’s the basic idea:
1) I’ve read that Lee’s Alox contains calcium soap, oils, and calcium sulfonates, and solvents. Calcium soap is a hydrologic lubricant, so that’s all I’m after at this point.
2) The 45/45/10 mixes microcrystalline wax & Carnauba wax with LLA, giving a drier coating. BLL is similar, but I think there’s a polymer that replaces the wax.
3) So if I can get calcium soap, microcrystalline wax, and Carnauba wax dissolved into solvents, I will have a liquid lube. This is where the danger may be.
4) Calcium soap is soluble in benzene and warm turpentine. For now, I’m only considering turpentine.
5) Sodium soap is soluble in microcrystalline wax, which is much easier than dissolving calcium soap. So I plan to dissolve as much lab grade sodium soap as I can into microcrystalline wax, and then dissolve that pair in turpentine.
6) Since I have Felix lube with microcrystalline wax, I decided to dissolve that in turpentine for an easy initial feasibility study.
I got kinda nervous here, so I’d like to get your thoughts on just how risky this may be.
….a) I place a few kernels of FWFL in a 4 oz glass mason jar, placed that jar in a sauce pan with water, heated the pan on the stove until the wax melted. The water did not boil. Wax dissolves into solvents better when things are warm.
….b) I took that pan & wax outside and placed it on the ground, in the sun. It was 30 degrees F outside.
….c) When the wax showed first signs of solidifying, I poured as little turpentine as I could into the mason jar. The turpentine was about 60F. Some turpentine spilled into the hot water.
….d) I held my breath and stirred the wax & turpentine, until I needed to leave and breath.
….e) I went inside and came out ~5 minutes later. The turpentine was hot and billowing off the water. So how dangerous are these fumes? Is there a good respirator for these fumes?
*
I took a shower and looked at the mixture. It looks like some wax dissolved into the turpentine. I’m leaving it outside in the cold for the day, and I’ll see if it’s hard or sludgy in the morning.
*
So how do you address the safety concerns of heating turpentine or mineral spirits?

[JimB..]

Quick search for “respirator for turpentine” will give you options, generally inexpensive.
Yes you want one.
You also want to be doing this outside.
I’d be a little worried about combustion too.

[justindad]

3M tells me to use an OV rated respirator plus eye goggles. Turpentine vapors to the eyes is probably terrible. If this works, I’ll try for mineral spirits. Mineral spirits can be hazardous too, but it seems not quite as severe. I started with turpentine because it is a better solvent for wax.
*
I returned home after 5 hours. Most of the wax was dissolved and the turpentine is a milky white. I stirred & smashed the remains g wax and I’ll leave it out overnight (the low for tonight is 15F) and look at it after church. If it looks decent, I’ll roll 12 .38 wadcutters in it and see if they lead my short barrel. So far, the results are good enough for me to start dissolving the soap into microcrystalline wax for the second iteration.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've met a few people in my lifetime, that know just enough to be dangerous.
I think you should stick to buying your boolit lube.

[36g]

Just because a compound is soluble in one solvent doesn't mean it will remain soluble if another solvent is added. Within organic chemistry ( and other versions) that's how you purify compounds - through a precipitation process. Temperature can be a critical component related to solubility. Unless a compound is infinitely soluble in a solvent it will reach a saturation point that will be temperature influenced. The colder the temperature the less soluble a compound becomes.

A simple organic vapor cartridge in a respirator should work for turpentine. Mineral spirits may be easier to work with.

[justindad]

I've met a few people in my lifetime, that know just enough to be dangerous.
I think you should stick to buying your boolit lube.

The worst part is: I’ve never used liquid lube before. I tinker too much.

[justindad]

Just because a compound is soluble in one solvent doesn't mean it will remain soluble if another solvent is added. Within organic chemistry ( and other versions) that's how you purify compounds - through a precipitation process. Temperature can be a critical component related to solubility. Unless a compound is infinitely soluble in a solvent it will reach a saturation point that will be temperature influenced. The colder the temperature the less soluble a compound becomes.

A simple organic vapor cartridge in a respirator should work for turpentine. Mineral spirits may be easier to work with.

Thanks 36g. I’ve wondered if the soap would precipitate out of the solution after the wax dissolved in the solvent. I’ll look out for that, while acknowledging the soap may be in so little quantity that I may not be able to observe that precipitation.

[georgerkahn]

My curiosity is piqued with, "why?" Lee Liquid Alox may be purchased -- 4 ounce bottle -- for $6.18 to your door from a place in Kentucky; up to $10.99 at MidwayUSA. With the cost of all you ingredients listed, I wonder if you maybe spending MORE? (Note I am not one to criticize as I make/bake my own bread, and quite often store-bought bread comes at a lower price than that of my ingredients ).
That you raise the "safety" issue is good!
On subject of "good", a post published on this site a while back in 2009 -- https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-amp-Mess-Free -- may be worth a gander for you? Mineral spirits and Paste Wax are the only added ingredients; you get to play chemist ; and I 100% concur with the finished product's effectiveness. Sadly (?) for me the ingredient of greatest cost is the Johnson's Paste Wax, but adding what one uses in, with odorless mineral spirits bought in quart cans at Lowe's -- I know I have lubed two batches of 750 bullets each and still have maybe 1 1/2" solution left on Alox plastic bottle.
No haz-mat gear required, albeit my prep is outdoors on an electric hotplate on a warm, sunny day. (Truly a memory today, where again I awoke to minus-three degree outdoor temp!)
Good luck!
geo

[justindad]

I’m leaning towards canceling this project. Curiosity is my only motivator here.

[JimB..]

I’d make a batch of 45-45-10 first so you have a better idea of what you’re trying to produce.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-amp-Mess-Free

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Curiosity got the better of me and I have designed a series of experiments intended to develop a recipe for making liquid bullet lube.

My curiosity is piqued with, "why?"

George asks a good question.
If I were to reinvent the wheel, I'd research what a boolit lube does, what I would want it to do for my applications and what each component, of all the popular recipes, does.
This is a long read, but you might get some answers to the questions I think should be asked.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...lube-The-Quest


Can I assume you've already read this chapter? If you haven't, read that first.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...ubrication.htm

[centershot]

Curiosity got the better of me and I have designed a series of experiments intended to develop a recipe for making liquid bullet lube. First, I need to know if it’s excessively dangerous.
*
Here’s the basic idea:
1) I’ve read that Lee’s Alox contains calcium soap, oils, and calcium sulfonates, and solvents. Calcium soap is a hydrologic lubricant, so that’s all I’m after at this point.
2) The 45/45/10 mixes microcrystalline wax & Carnauba wax with LLA, giving a drier coating. BLL is similar, but I think there’s a polymer that replaces the wax.
3) So if I can get calcium soap, microcrystalline wax, and Carnauba wax dissolved into solvents, I will have a liquid lube. This is where the danger may be.
4) Calcium soap is soluble in benzene and warm turpentine. For now, I’m only considering turpentine.
5) Sodium soap is soluble in microcrystalline wax, which is much easier than dissolving calcium soap. So I plan to dissolve as much lab grade sodium soap as I can into microcrystalline wax, and then dissolve that pair in turpentine.
6) Since I have Felix lube with microcrystalline wax, I decided to dissolve that in turpentine for an easy initial feasibility study.
I got kinda nervous here, so I’d like to get your thoughts on just how risky this may be.
….a) I place a few kernels of FWFL in a 4 oz glass mason jar, placed that jar in a sauce pan with water, heated the pan on the stove until the wax melted. The water did not boil. Wax dissolves into solvents better when things are warm.
….b) I took that pan & wax outside and placed it on the ground, in the sun. It was 30 degrees F outside.
….c) When the wax showed first signs of solidifying, I poured as little turpentine as I could into the mason jar. The turpentine was about 60F. Some turpentine spilled into the hot water.
….d) I held my breath and stirred the wax & turpentine, until I needed to leave and breath.
….e) I went inside and came out ~5 minutes later. The turpentine was hot and billowing off the water. So how dangerous are these fumes? Is there a good respirator for these fumes?
*
I took a shower and looked at the mixture. It looks like some wax dissolved into the turpentine. I’m leaving it outside in the cold for the day, and I’ll see if it’s hard or sludgy in the morning.
*
So how do you address the safety concerns of heating turpentine or mineral spirits?

BLL and 45-45-10 work, and work well! Instead of going to all this effort in what could possibly be disastrous, why not just use what we already know works?

[porthos]

we know that the "store bought " liquid/tumble lubes work, because of all of the comments about their succesfull use. why go into a dark unknown??

[HWooldridge]

I use turpentine frequently at room temperature - and I’m sure you know it’s extremely flammable. It seems much worse than gasoline about flashing, so be careful.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Turpentine flash point 95º F
Gasoline flash point -45º F

[HWooldridge]

Turpentine flash point 95º F
Gasoline flash point -45º F

Well, there you go…

[elmacgyver0]

I remember my dad used to say something about turpentining stray dogs.
It involved a corn cob.

[hc18flyer]

Several years ago I made a batch of BLL using Lundmarks liquid wax, I bought at Ace Hardware. It worked fine in my pistol loads and the few low velocity rifle loads I tried it in. It just took a little time to try. I have since moved to powder coating, so my remaining ingredients sit on my shelf. Now I run a soaked patch down my pistol barrels after a though cleaning. hc18flyer

[Kentucky146]

My lube is as follows for BOTH Black Powder and Smokeless 20 ounces bees wax, 2 ounces Anhydrous Lanolin, 1 pound Lard or Crisco and 2 ounces Ballistol (original recipe call for canola oil, Ballistol is my substitute) Turpentine caustic and flammable why reinvent the wheel when the one I got is more than adequate. Recipe was provided by Recoil Therapy Channel (youtube) by way of Ingot to Target Frizell, Taffin, Applegate were original authors. Then again I prefer simple

[justindad]

It doesn’t seem like many people are familiar enough with turpentine to answer the question asked. I got a PM about turpentine & beeswax making for a good wood polish. Normally, the fumes must not be too horrendous, but fumes over 100F seem to be outside the range of normal household use.
*
I read that turpentine fumes are heavier than air.