Now that's a bayonet

[hpbear101]

Finally got a bayonet for the 1866 Chassepot needle rifle. My grandson is pretty excited to go shoot a few rounds with bayonet attached.

[Gewehr-Guy]

They are indeed an impressive blade! I have one for my Gras rifle, but have never shot it with bayonet attached. Looking forward too a range report, as a Chassepot is on my want list!

[Sasquatch-1]

I had one of these sword bayonets and passed it on to my eldest son who is a bit of a Civil War nut. Mine had a large whole for the barrel and if I remember correctly, it was stamped 1860 with the letters RI. I haven't seen in many years, and I am going by faulty memory on the date. I was never sure what rifle it went with.

[MOC031]

Finally got a bayonet for the 1866 Chassepot needle rifle. My grandson is pretty excited to go shoot a few rounds with bayonet attached.

I know of - but know little - of the Chassepot rifle. My 30 years in the military mind makes me curious as to what the military/arsenals of the day used as their logic for deciding a bayonet that long would be the perfect length for the troops to gut the enemy with?

Perhaps they had so little faith in the reliability of the needle rifle they thought they'd ensure the troops would at least have a sword (or spear) to stay in the fight?

A little off topic, but over the years I've regularly been amused at enthusiastic reloaders who own Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk1 rifles attempting to duplicate Mk VII ballistics in a search for a reload that would match the sight settings on their rifles over the course.

Not only is there no bullet out there on the market that exactly matches the G7/G1 BC of the Mk VIII, but the military pams for the rifle specify that that the rifle is to be sighted in (by way of the proper height front sight element choice for elevation adjustments during zeroing) WITH THE BAYONET FIXED.

I went down the road of attempting to do the same thing duplicating the Mk VII over two decades ago (already knowing there was no commercial bullet available to match the ball round). It took a while before I dove into the military pams and discovered that there was another factor at play: zeroing was to be done with the bayonet attached.

I tossed the project to just find the tightest grouping reload in my rifle, and then zero the rifle at 400 yards (fine tuning elevation by filing down a too-tall front sight) and accept the differences that made on the rear sight settings at other ranges, and never mind the bayonet.

I do know from that personal experience with my rifle and a couple of other No. 4 Mk 1 rifles that hanging a bayonet off the muzzle of the rifle makes a big, big difference in point of impact.

Can't recall what it did to the grouping, because I didn't see a future in fixing bayonets on the berm before shooting in a match when my relay was called...

I don't suppose there's a military pam available somewhere for the troops issued the Chassepot rifle. But it would be fun to see what happens to POI as well as grouping with and without the bayonet attached.

[challenger_i]

In the days of lining up and potting away at One's adversary, bayonets were more of a psychological weapon than a tactical device. The larger, uglier the blade, the more intimidating to One's foe.

[georgerkahn]

In the days of lining up and potting away at One's adversary, bayonets were more of a psychological weapon than a tactical device. The larger, uglier the blade, the more intimidating to One's foe.

A history prof at college where I worked voiced that in the real old days of combat, e.g., the very early ones with firearms, many could have been considered "single shot weapons" for a good many reasons -- damp powder, technique, ability of soldier to load, and often timing: enemy getting real close -- so the bayonet then was an actual fighting device, where soldiers endeavored to impale or slice their opponent. He then went on to say the the modern bayonet's primary purpose was to save ammunition -- with its suggested use to terminate the downed opponent with a slash or stab. This info comes from his voice -- no listed references -- but it did and does kind of make sense to me... To put a downed opponent out of their misery, not that long a blade was required.
geo

[challenger_i]

The trick is to "Insert blade, twist 90 degrees and remove". Some of the recruits I dealt with thought the "twist" was to make it easier to remove. Nope, says the Old Grunt instructor: "Hurts way more when you twist it!"

[jaysouth]

I have fond memories of the good old days when rifles had stout wooden stocks, metal buttplates and bayonttes. Vertical butt stroke and diagonal slash with the blade.

[challenger_i]

Yah. "Butt Stroke to the Head" had lots more panache with a Garand than an M16 ever dreamed of!

[GregLaROCHE]

When I saw the title I immediately thought of my Chassepot and it’s massive bayonet. One of the reasons bayonets got longer was to compensate for guns getting shorter. A soldier needed enough reach to out the enemy mounted on a horse.

How are you planning to load for your Chassepot or has it been converted to a Gras?

[hpbear101]

When I saw the title I immediately thought of my Chassepot and it’s massive bayonet. One of the reasons bayonets got longer was to compensate for guns getting shorter. A soldier needed enough reach to out the enemy mounted on a horse.

How are you planning to load for your Chassepot or has it been converted to a Gras?

Mine is still in the original Chassepot needle configuration. Replaced the rubber obturator with one made from a hardware store rubber stopper and formed on a lathe. It works great and has a couple hundred rounds on it. I made the needle from a 1.5mm TIG electrode it should last forever.


I have two methods of loading.

1: is the paper tube formed on a mandrel. This one uses a Lee 45-405HB bullet


2: the quick and easy is a cartridge made from a plastic straw and loaded with a heeled bullet, or the traditional correct Chassepot tapered bullet (shown in pic). Makes it very easy to keep OAL correct for the needle. It works pretty well occasionally will have to brush the chamber if the cartridge fails to leave the barrel. I just loaded a few more in the straw with BP, topped with cornmeal and no wads.


I do plan on making a more period correct cartridge at some time it's just a time consuming process.

The biggest issue is the musket caps. I tried a lot of rounds using CCI caps and had constant misfires (very frustrating). CCI caps are a copper cup with priming mixture. The needle just passes right through the cup and doesn't reliably fire the cap. RWS caps are made of brass so it is a much harder cup and the needle will crush the priming mixture and fire reliably. Also RWS caps have slits along the side of the cap which I suspect allows the priming mixture (I also fill the musket cap with some 4F) to reach the main charge.

[Adam Helmer]

Finally got a bayonet for the 1866 Chassepot needle rifle. My grandson is pretty excited to go shoot a few rounds with bayonet attached.

hpbear101,

Very interesting post. I hold an M.A. in history and collect military arms and bayonets. The bayonet was once a very useful implement: It ensured a single-shot equipped soldier had something of a weapon if his arm failed to fire or if he did not have enough time to reload. It also effectively deterred cavalry from trying to overrun a square of infantry.

I do not have a Chassepot, but do have an 1873 Gras and bayonet of similar length. During my research for my master's thesis, I read many Civil War medical records on wounds and was surprised to learn only about 2% of treaded wounds at 1863 Gettysburg were from bayonets. Another medical report said that 2% of "treated wounds" were because bayonet wounds were nearly always fatal.

Currently, the military issues bayonets almost like a Swiss Army Knife Tool. Some double as wire cutters and other tasks. I like collecting bayonets. Be aware affixing a bayonet will CHANGE bullet point of impact. I prefer to sight in my military rifle WITHOUT bayonet affixed.
Be well.
Adam

[TNsailorman]

I am a history buff from the time I learned to read. I was waiting to see if someone would post about the bayonet changing the point of aim when attached. Thanks Adam. It sure would on the Garands I have owned and carried. Different rifles normally would have different shifts in POA. Although I have bayonets for my 1903 & 1903A3, I have never shot either with a bayonet attached. I am not much on "going Hollywood" when shooting. As far as usage goes, usage has changed with the times and weapons and situations. There are a lot of old wives tells out there from people who never had to use one in a combat situation. james

[Adam Helmer]

Finally got a bayonet for the 1866 Chassepot needle rifle. My grandson is pretty excited to go shoot a few rounds with bayonet attached.

hpbear101,

Very interesting post. I hold an M.A. in history and collect military arms and bayonets. The bayonet was once a very useful implement: It ensured a single-shot equipped soldier had something of a weapon if his arm failed to fire or if he did not have enough time to reload. It also effectively deterred cavalry from trying to overrun a square of infantry.

I do not have a Chassepot, but do have an 1873 Gras and bayonet of similar length. During my research for my master's thesis, I read many Civil War medical records on wounds and was surprised to learn only about 2% of treaded wounds at 1863 Gettysburg were from bayonets. Another medical report said that 2% of "treated wounds" were because bayonet wounds were nearly always fatal.

Currently, the military issues bayonets almost like a Swiss Army Knife Tool. Some double as wire cutters and other tasks. I like collecting bayonets. Be aware affixing a bayonet will CHANGE bullet point of impact. I prefer to sight in my military rifle WITHOUT bayonet affixed.
Be well.
Adam

[Larry Gibson]

As to the change of zero when bayonets are fixed, consider that when bayonets are fixed the expect combatant distance, i.e. range, is very short. Any change in zero will be negligeable at close quarter combat ranges.

Many consider the bayonet as "obsolete" because they've never had to use one. However, consider this; those that needed to use one and didn't have one aren't here to express the need for the bayonet. At close quarters combat ranges the need for the bayonet is ever present. Been there, done that......

[inspector_17]

Saw 12 gauge trench guns with bayonets attached once, belonged to an Army Reserve MP unit. Those bayonets were LOOONG bright and SHINEY! 2 platoons worth as I recall. Definitely intimidating!

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,
My Internet provider is "Off and On", so I cannot understand my recent double post. Whatever. Larry Gibson nailed it: at close range, an affixed bayonet versus POA/POI is moot.

At Waterloo in 1814, the French tried 7 times to overrun Wellington's Infantry squares with cavalry and the squares held because of the bayonet. A surviving French cavalryman wrote about the "forest of blades."

Adam

[GregLaROCHE]

Mine is still in the original Chassepot needle configuration. Replaced the rubber obturator with one made from a hardware store rubber stopper and formed on a lathe. It works great and has a couple hundred rounds on it. I made the needle from a 1.5mm TIG electrode it should last forever.


I have two methods of loading.

1: is the paper tube formed on a mandrel. This one uses a Lee 45-405HB bullet


2: the quick and easy is a cartridge made from a plastic straw and loaded with a heeled bullet, or the traditional correct Chassepot tapered bullet (shown in pic). Makes it very easy to keep OAL correct for the needle. It works pretty well occasionally will have to brush the chamber if the cartridge fails to leave the barrel. I just loaded a few more in the straw with BP, topped with cornmeal and no wads.


I do plan on making a more period correct cartridge at some time it's just a time consuming process.

The biggest issue is the musket caps. I tried a lot of rounds using CCI caps and had constant misfires (very frustrating). CCI caps are a copper cup with priming mixture. The needle just passes right through the cup and doesn't reliably fire the cap. RWS caps are made of brass so it is a much harder cup and the needle will crush the priming mixture and fire reliably. Also RWS caps have slits along the side of the cap which I suspect allows the priming mixture (I also fill the musket cap with some 4F) to reach the main charge.

I load mine similar to you. I roll paper on a mandrel and glue a bottom on it. I have a big piece of round stock the tight length with a hole the correct diameter. It supports the paper so I can tap down the powder and filler. It’s important to get the OAL length right with filler. I use cream of wheat. How do you install the primer? The normal direction? I put mine in reversed so the needle strikes the anvil.
Unfortunately, I only have a fifty meter range available and with the sights set to the closest distance, I’m 1 meter over my point of aim.

[Sasquatch-1]

Bayonets to cartridges. I think this tread's been

[WILCO]

Bayonets to cartridges. I think this tread's been

Yup!