1885 Win/Miroku Smokless/Jacketed loads 45-90 Help Please

[aklaunch]

Happy new year all.

4 years ago now, I inherited one beautiful modern Win/Miroku 1885 single shot. It has a round, 28 inch barrel.

I also have a nice little pile of Starline 45-90 brass.

Bullets on hand are Hornady 325gr FTX, Hornady 300gr HP and Hornady 350 Grain RN. I have many of the popular fast burning powders like R7, AA2015, IMR 4198 and H335 etc.

I have no idea where to safely start, and work my way up. HELP!!!

In a perfect world i would like to work up to respectable velocities. A bit higher than the 45-70, with good case fill.

Too much higher and it will have too much recoil.

Long time reloader with a Lab Radar. I shoot 45-70 quite a bit. I can't wait to use this rifle. It is so beautiful!

I have a Teslong bore scope. The inside of the barrel is perfect.

My dad never spoke of this one.

He passed away very fast. I believe he had just purchased the rifle new. Not long before.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Lyman 47, 49, 50, Accurate Manual #2.
Strangely, Hodgdon (who bought Accurate), doesn't list the 45-90 in their online manual.

[aklaunch]

Good point. I have the Lyman #50, Their Cast bullet manual, and an old accurate manual. None list jacketed bullets.

While i type this i remember an article or two from Ken Waters in Pet Loads.

I will re-visit his work.

Thanks

[Nobade]

Considering that same basic rifle was made in 375 H&H mag as well as the WSM calibers, you aren't going to have any pressure problems with it. You may start damaging your cartridge cases if you go far enough, but as you guessed you'll want to stop due to recoil before you ever get that far. As for capacity, you have essentially a 458 win mag. So if you start with the Ruger type 45-70 loads and work into the lower range 458 loads, you will be right where you would want to be, assuming you want to sit behind it. Once you get tired of that, go back to soft lead and black powder and enjoy your new rifle even more.
As for the difference in cast and jacketed, you aren't going to see much unless you start using the solid copper bullets made for shooting through buffalo or any of the Barnes solids. As always, start low and work up.

[aklaunch]

Thank you Nobade.

I understand what you are saying.

[NSB]

These guns ARE NOT intended for Ruger #1 loads. That info is available if you look for it. I own one of these guns in 45-70 and the 45-90 is not built any stronger than the 45-70 is. In fact, the 45-90 was built for those who wanted to shoot black powder and get more performance than they could out of the somewhat shorter 45-70 case. It’s not a “magnum” 45-70 and it’s not intended to be shot with Ruger #1 loads. The lock-up/action on the 45-70 and 45-90 is the same. If you want some “expert” advice on these guns visit ASSRA.com (American Single Shot Rifle Association).

[aklaunch]

This is the the rifle

https://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...hardened.html#

The next link is to The Hodgon Powder Company warning page. (click on rifle pistol, scroll down to page 2)

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/warnings/


It links the 1885 and Ruger #1 and #3 into the same section. (*modern rifles)

The data is for 50,000 CUP which i believe is somewhere close to 60,000 Psi.

Not that i have a pressure measuring device. Just sayin.

[NSB]

Every edition of the Lyman reloading manual lists the Ruger 1 and 3 together and no other firearm is listed with them. A call to Winchester will tell you that these guns should be loaded to the same pressure levels as the Marlin. 1895.

[longbow]

I'd be interested in finding out for sure. I have been thinking about a Winchester High Wall in .45-70 and had assumed that the new(er) ones were modern steels and rated for somewhere between 50,000 and 60,000 PSI.

The Winchester info says:

13 USE ONLY SAAMI APPROVED AMMUNITION.
The barrel and action of this firearm have been
made with safety margins over the pressures
established by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition
Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) for Service
Cartridges. However, we assume no responsibility
for incidents which occur through the use of
cartridges of nonstandard dimension or those
developing pressures in excess of SAAMI
established standards.

This is more than somewhat ambiguous for .45-70 when you look at the various chamberings in modern but older 1885 High Walls:

CALIBER • BARREL LENGTH
22-250 Rem • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
220 Swift • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
223 Rem • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
270 Win • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
270 WSM • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
270 WSM • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
7mm WSM • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
30-06 Spfld • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
300 Win Mag • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
300 WSM • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
300 WSM • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION
325 WSM • 28
NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION

Many of these cartridges run at pressures as high as 64,000 PSI. Would Winchester have used higher grade materials and/or heat treatment for those calibers but not .45-70? Will they tell anyone?

The Hodgdon website does put the Browning 1885 in the same load level as Ruger #1 and #3 and Siamese Mauser.

I have no desire for top end Ruger load levels but had expected the 1885 High Wall to take at least Marlin load levels. Now I wonder a bit though if the same action is used for 300 Win Mag then it will take the pressure of Ruger level .45-70.

Interstingly, from what I am finding the Uberti 1885 is rated only to 28,000 PSI.

It would certainly be prudent to find out for sure before dropping a high pressure load into a "modern" 1885 High Wall!

Longbow

[aklaunch]

I appreciate everybody's insight.

My goal is not to load this thing to "shoulder busting" levels. The nature of a high case capacity, and smokeless powder warrant higher charge weights. It is glaringly obvious that this cartridge is likely better left to black powder loadings.

I called up Winchester this morning. They transferred me to one of their gunsmiths. He said the rifles they make are for SAAMI spec.

I told him there is no SAAMI spec for 45-90. He offered me Olin Corps phone number to get pressure data for 45-90.

Basically caught in the go ask your mom, go ask your dad tape loop.

Next a call was put in to Hodgon. A very nice spokesperson there told me the only information they have on the cartridge is from the Lyman cast bullet manual.

I asked his professional opinion on the difference between cast and jacketed pressures. Crickets..... Silence. I thanked him for his time.

Nobade taught me that there may not be a practical, significant difference in lead vs jacketed pressures inside of a range.

NSB has pointed me towards the ASSRA.

I will keep plugging along.

[NSB]

FYI, the reason Winchester made this gun in 45-90 was really for black powder shooters. They needed (wanted really) the extra case capacity for shooting black powder. Being much lower pressure than smokeless it’s a very safe option. The joy in owning one these guns isn’t in turning it into a 458 win mag. It’s about shooting a gun that’s a beast in its own right without taking it beyond its design/safety limits.

[wwmartin]

I have 2 traditional hunters one in 375H&H and the other in 405win. I shoot cast in both. They are not heavy rifles and I loaded them with in accordance. I also have Ruger #1 Tropicals in 375H&H and 458win . They are more appropriate for the heavy loads. I must be getting old, getting beaten by a piece of wood with a pipe attached isn't as much fun as it once was.
Enjoy your new toy.

Bill

[Nobade]

The original version of that rifle, sold as a Browning Creedmoor or BPCR depending on the barrel length, was certified for smokeless in the 45-70 chambering and black powder only in the 45-90 simply because there is no SAAMI spec for 45-90. The barrels were marked "for black powder only" on the 45-90. But it's the same rifle, with .3" more chamber. And it was indeed made for long range black powder competitors, as it is more reliable at 1000 yards than the 45-70.

And as I pointed out, it is plenty strong but there's no reason to try to destroy it or yourself with hot smokeless loads. Basically go forth and enjoy it, and don't worry. You'll know when to stop.

Beaten with a piece of wood with a pipe attached - I like that! I'm keeping it for future use. I used to do stuff like that too, if it was in a loading manual I would try it. 45 years later I don't need to, I know what will happen and don't need any of that either. It sounds like the OP has a good handle on things and will be just fine with his wonderful new toy.

[black mamba]

I ran some loads through Gordon's Reloading Tool and came up with these loads for the Hornady 350 gr. RN and each of your powders @ 28 kpsi.

IMR-4198 . . . 43.0 gr. gives 1925 fps
Alliant R7 . . . 48.0 gr. gives 2000 fps
AA 2015 . . . . 52.0 gr. gives 2025 fps
H 335 . . . . . . 56.5 gr. gives 2045 fps

If you are looking for velocities below about 1900 fps I would stick with the IMR 4198.

[aklaunch]

I found yet another reference that associates Rugers with modern 1885's (In Speers manual)

My rifle does not say black powder only. It is the sporter version. \

I leave soon for the rifle range. I am going to " pull the trigger"

Will update the load and velocity this evening.

Thanks to all here.

[Tripplebeards]

I gave you my insights over on predator masters.lol. I was going to tell you just to start calling the powder companies and pick their brains too. Looks like black mamba has you covered. Make sure to post your results.

[aklaunch]

Just a quick update before family and dinner!

Thanks to all here!

37° F
Hornady 325 grain FTX, Starline Case, CCI 200 lighting 51.5 grains of Reloader 7 made 2088fps out of a 28 inch barreled 45-90!

I have had that round loaded for near a year. The folks here helped me muster the courage to go out and get some data. (safely!!!)

I will ponder for some time on what to do next