Muzzelloader Accuracy

[foesgth]

I have been trying to shoot at a local match. Now, the guy who used to come in last is really glad I'm showing up. I know I'm not a great shot...however I am better than what I'm getting from my rifle. I have a CVA Plains rifle in 50 caliber. I am shooting round ball from a Lee combo mold. That is the mold that makes a round ball and a real bullet. I can shoot better groups with my Mossberg 590 smooth bore and Lee 7/8oz slugs!
I have had several things suggested to me.
1. I should be shooting a .490 ball with a thicker patch.
2. I should be using an over the powder patch
3. I should learn how to shoot...I'm trying dude I am.

I have to use a pretty thin patch with the Lee round balls. What is the rule? Will I be more accurate with a smaller RB and a thicker patch.

I don't understand the over powder patch. The guy who does this sticks a patch part way down his barrel with his starter. He then loads a ball and patch like normal. I don't see how that helps. Would it help to make some 50 cal nitro cards and put one over the powder?

Do you folks have any thoughts or can you direct me to some info on developing an accurate load for a front stuffer. I know from years of loading cartridges that the load makes a difference. I assume this must also be true with these rifles.

As far a learning how to shoot. I am working on that!

[HWooldridge]

You need to know what the rifle will do from a bench rest before shooting offhand. It just eliminates another variable and will give you confidence of the rifle's ability.

My frontloaders all prefer a particular load range and generally it's a fairly hot load. My .45 liked a patched round ball and 70-80 grs of FFg - anything less would not group well. I never use an over powder patch or wad - but I do subscribe to the theory of smaller ball size and thicker patch, primarily because that combo is usually easier to load and a smaller ball will generally upset to fill the grooves. Subsequently, I used a .440 ball with an .010-.012 patch - although I tried a box of .445 balls once and results were not good. My .54 liked 90-100 grs of FFg and a .525 ball, rather than the .530 that is often recommended as a starting size.

You will hit a sweet spot in your rifle when the right combination is reached. My .54 would stack balls at 50 yds and stay on a playing card at 100 yds if I did my part.

[Gtrubicon]

What powder and how much are you using? What patch material and thickness? What patch lube are you using?

[Tatume]

I don't understand the over powder patch. The guy who does this sticks a patch part way down his barrel with his starter. He then loads a ball and patch like normal.

The guy has probably had patches burnt through and thinks this will stop that from happening. It probably will, but I don't think it is the best solution. Finding the best combination of patch and ball is the best, but it can take a bit of time. People who have been doing this for awhile can find a good combination quickly.

Have you shot your rifle from a bench rest to see what the accuracy is? You should, and walk down and pickup up your patches while you're at it.

Muzzle loading rifles take longer than modern rifles to ignite the powder and expel the ball from the barrel. During this time you have to hold steady. Any movement will show in your targets.

I don't see how that helps. Would it help to make some 50 cal nitro cards and put one over the powder?

Maybe. Try it from the bench and see.

[LAGS]

I would try different loads and patch combinations.
Like you said.
Try a thinner patch.
Then try a thicker patch.
Also you can try going to a .495" ball instead of the .490".
Then try over powder patches or even over powder fiber wads.
Also there's is one thing lots of guys do not do.
That is weigh the lead balls and see there consistency or actual size.
Every rifle is different.
I had three rifles that were identical.
But each one preferred a different load for best accuracy.target shooting does take some time and a little work.
But it is well worth it in the long run.

[Maven]

You don't need an overpowder wad or patch with a RB. What you DO need to do is to try a given load with your particular RB and patch combination. Here are a few suggestions:
1) Try a starting load of real black powder of 50-55grains FFg or 45 -50grs. FFFg.

2) Patch material (100% cotton) comes in various thicknesses*: You need to measure yours with a dial indicating caliper or better, a micrometer. You'll also need to measure the diameter of the roundball you cast (pure lead): It should be somewhere between .488" and .501". Essentially, you need to match the patch thickness to the ball diameter.

3) Set up your target at 25 yd. When (if?) you can put 5 shots into less than 1" at that distance, move out to 50 yd. and increase your powder charge until you get small groups (You likely won't need to go beyond 80gr. FFg). Btw, all this is done from a bench rest position with front and rear [support] bags.

4) For range testing, I like to use a wet lube for my patches: 1 part Ballistol to 6 parts water work very well and you won't need to swab between shots.

Hope this helps you get better results!


*Patch material must be 100% cotton and can be denim, which comes in various thicknesses or weights, pillow ticking, which also comes in various thicknesses, and drill cloth/pocket drill, which does the same. Jo-Ann Fabrics carries these, but you'll still need to measure their thickness vs. the patches you are now using. You will be looking for a compressed thickness since you're pushing/forcing a patched RB down your barrel: You want moderate effort here. There's lots of information online about how to measure patch thickness, it's not difficult to comprehend or accomplish, but you will need a dial indicating micrometer (better) or caliper.

[BLAHUT]

I have been trying to shoot at a local match. Now, the guy who used to come in last is really glad I'm showing up. I know I'm not a great shot...however I am better than what I'm getting from my rifle. I have a CVA Plains rifle in 50 caliber. I am shooting round ball from a Lee combo mold. That is the mold that makes a round ball and a real bullet. I can shoot better groups with my Mossberg 590 smooth bore and Lee 7/8oz slugs!
I have had several things suggested to me.
1. I should be shooting a .490 ball with a thicker patch.
2. I should be using an over the powder patch
3. I should learn how to shoot...I'm trying dude I am.

I have to use a pretty thin patch with the Lee round balls. What is the rule? Will I be more accurate with a smaller RB and a thicker patch.

I don't understand the over powder patch. The guy who does this sticks a patch part way down his barrel with his starter. He then loads a ball and patch like normal. I don't see how that helps. Would it help to make some 50 cal nitro cards and put one over the powder?

Do you folks have any thoughts or can you direct me to some info on developing an accurate load for a front stuffer. I know from years of loading cartridges that the load makes a difference. I assume this must also be true with these rifles.

As far a learning how to shoot. I am working on that!

I can only tell you what I did ? I worked long and hard to maintain the last place spot ? I shoot a CVA .50, I tried around ball and patch, did not work for me... I use a 500 gr pure lead bullet, with 41 grs of blackhorn 209, to keep it at 1200 FPS depending on lot number, sized to .461 for my gun, make my own lube, will almost shoot one hole for 10 shots at 100yds if I do my part at the bench.... A 500 gr hollow base also works good for me... Took a long time of try this and try that, to get there ??? And yes; it takes a long time to get accurate with one of these rifles, either black powder or cartridge ..... GOTA USE the four letter swear word; PRACTICE; PRACTICE and PRACTICE some more..... Shooting a .177 airgun at 10 meters will help a lot and it's cheaper... An over powder wad will help to keep the powder down against the primer in a cartridge gun, and may help to protect the bullet base in a hot Ill fitting load........ A fellow I is shot with when just starting out, he was a 300 meter Olympian , what he said was; if you think it works it probly does; Just PRACTICE;;;;;;;;;;;;;

[Graysmoke]

Foesgth, how are the patches? Have you dressed the crown so you don’t stress cut the patch loading? From trial and error a sacrificial patch does stop patch burning or blow out but now you need to find the problem and a solution be it a different ball n patch combo and or load. What I mean is use the aux. patch to find load and group, then go to single patch to find the shredding solution.One thing at a time trying multiple things can bring in more problems.
Graysmoke.

[foesgth]

What powder and how much are you using? What patch material and thickness? What patch lube are you using?

I have tried 45 to 75 grains of real black powder. As far as patches. We I am new to this so I'm using store bought lubed patches. I have 3 different thickness of patch. I think they are 5, 10, 15 thousands. The 15 are too hard to load.

I don't understand about "dressing the crown". I have always been taught not to touch the crown.

[Rockingkj]

Load development as mentioned , trying patch thickness, lube? Folks like a wet sliva patch, me I use patches lubed with bore butter. Some rifles like to be swabbed between shots others others after 5. Figure out what works best in your rifle and previous posters were quite right PRACTICE.

Keep at it ,shooting should be fun and is. Improvement will come with time. There is usually plenty of folks willing to help. I’m in Nebr and if you are in the area I’ll help you.

[Rockingkj]

As far as a wool wad between the powder and patched ball that can be part of your load development. Look at your fired patch (can be hard to find) holes or burned thru needs a thicker patch or the wool wad to prevent burn thru. My rifles generally like a tight patch ball combo. But should load easily. If you’re beating it down the bore your accuracy will suffer.

For target shooting get a range rod for loading (and cleaning) ram rod on the rifle is ok for hunting but shooting a lot get a one piece rod with a “T” handle.

[HWooldridge]

I have tried 45 to 75 grains of real black powder. As far as patches. We I am new to this so I'm using store bought lubed patches. I have 3 different thickness of patch. I think they are 5, 10, 15 thousands. The 15 are too hard to load.

I don't understand about "dressing the crown". I have always been taught not to touch the crown.

Thicker patch = smaller diameter ball. .015 will load fine with a proportionally smaller pill.

Re dressing the crown: Can mean larger chamfer to ensure patches aren’t torn on loading…can also mean an intentional cone added to the muzzle to allow easier starting (although I would stay away from the latter until you’ve exhausted all other options).

[Graysmoke]

Foesgth,
Barrel off the stock, start by useing 320 grit then to 400 put a ball on the floor or a pad cover with sand paper bore down place on paper and the ball rotate the barrel back n forth keep vertical n true, ck bore to just smooth the crown at the ends of rifling next grit size do the same. This kind of Swedges the patch n ball in with no sharp ends or leading edges to start cutting of the patch. WATCH TO DO THIS EVENLY as possible. It can be done by thumb and grit paper if so chosen.
Gratsmoke

[freakonaleash]

I been doing this for 44 years. .490 ball, .018 patch, Murphys oil soap for lube. Probably around 60gr black powder 2f or 3f. Go up or down with the powder charge in 5gr increments until it shoots good. That's about it.

[Sandro_ventania]

They say that cornmeal over powder solves many problems.

[LAGS]

I heard that corn meal over powder makes more smoke and leaves more dirt in the barrel.
The only time I used corn meal over powder was for blank loads like for making movies or in theater shows.

[Sandro_ventania]

I heard that corn meal over powder makes more smoke and leaves more dirt in the barrel.
The only time I used corn meal over powder was for blank loads like for making movies or in theater shows.

The cornmeal does not burn, it is expelled outside, hence the impression of more smoke. Some precision shooters use it, as the cornmeal perfectly seals and protects the rear of the projectile. Some YouTube channels show it well...one of them is capandball, do you know this channel?

[725]

foesgth ~ lots of info above and it's all good for one rifle or another. not seeing your patches is a real liability for us to remotely analyze your particular deal. as mentioned, if they show cut marks from sharp rifling, you need to lap the barrel to remove irregular machine edges. a fiber wad between powder and patch can, indeed, improve accuracy. Pyrodex, triple seven or the real holy black all shoot differently, and your rifle will like one better than the others. pellets are the worst of 'em all. they crush and never give repeatable burn rates. cast balls may or may not have voids which could give you lopsided center of gravity issues. swaged balls tend to be more uniform. patch thicknesses and lube choices need to be experimented with to find the best combo, as does ball size. I'm not sure that the ball starter influences the shape of the ball too much, but I form a cupped/conical end on mine so when I start the ball, at least the spherical nature of the ball is maintained. seat the ball uniformly with a like shaped ramrod end and try to do it the same way every time. lots of experimenting and record keeping when first trying to develop a ML load. good luck.
ps: of course, check that the sights are screwed down tight and that they don't move. and that the barrel/action is likewise firm in the stock.

[waksupi]

I been doing this for 44 years. .490 ball, .018 patch, Murphys oil soap for lube. Probably around 60gr black powder 2f or 3f. Go up or down with the powder charge in 5gr increments until it shoots good. That's about it.

This is about all you need to know.

[foesgth]

Okay,
I'm going to the range tomorrow I will try to get a patch. I have ordered some .490 balls. I got a box of Hornady and a box of Speer. I had to order them, the only gun stores around here carry tacticool rifles and expensive shotguns.
Thanks for all the help. Just remember when you are talking to me, think like you are trying to explain it to a slightly slow 3rd grader. I have no experience with these guns. I am just working on the premise on of the guys at the shoot told me. He said "those silly cartridge rifles are a passing fad".