cowboy dies

[castmiester]

Looking high and low for the 44 mag.... to no avail can't find them. Wondering if I can have a standard FL die honed.

[lightload]

Looking high and low for the 44 mag.... to no avail can't find them. Wondering if I can have a standard FL die honed.

I think the Cowboy Die set's advantage is the expander die which expands the case to a larger diameter which makes it more suitable for seating cast bullets. A Lyman M die will do this for you.

[castmiester]

Cowboy expander for my 357/38 measure .356 and so does the standard one. So yeah thanks for the M die.

[Outer Rondacker]

Never did look into the differences in the two labeled die sets. I had always though the same that the expander was just larger for seating cast lead bullets. I would like to know if anyone has the details please share.

[castmiester]

Never did look into the differences in the two labeled die sets. I had always though the same that the expander was just larger for seating cast lead bullets. I would like to know if anyone has the details please share.

I was told years ago they over sized but the expander is .002 under the bullet diameter which is standard for jacketed. Not to long ago I tried expanding mandrels only to revert to Lee collet dies. But I guess an expander is what I would be stuck with on pistol straight wall cases.

[jetinteriorguy]

Check with NOE for both regular expanders and powder through versions that can be used with a Lee die. They are available in different sizes or if needed could possibly be special made. A quick call to them if you have questions is usually answered within 24 hours and they are very helpful. I use the powder through version on .38sp, .357mag, and 9mm with my Pro Auto Disc for all my pistol loading except my .41mag.

[Outer Rondacker]

I was told years ago they over sized but the expander is .002 under the bullet diameter which is standard for jacketed. Not to long ago I tried expanding mandrels only to revert to Lee collet dies. But I guess an expander is what I would be stuck with on pistol straight wall cases.

Almost 40 years ago when I started reloading I had nothing. I used to use a pair of needle nose pliers to expand the case mouth by lightly spinning them a bit to get a flare I needed to fit cast lead. Worked well and was really easy to do. I will sometimes still do this for a fast flare on loads of things. LOL

[Nobade]

The old two diameter steel RCBS dies will do the same thing and can usually be found for cheap. That and an expander plug of whatever size you need and you're set. I have ditched carbide dies for all my pistol caliber reloading and gone back to steel since I learned what the difference was.

[Outer Rondacker]

The old two diameter steel RCBS dies will do the same thing and can usually be found for cheap. That and an expander plug of whatever size you need and you're set. I have ditched carbide dies for all my pistol caliber reloading and gone back to steel since I learned what the difference was.

Not for nothing but you couldnt add what the difference is in your eyes in your post. So share please. Thanks

[pull the trigger]

Not for nothing but you couldnt add what the difference is in your eyes in your post. So share please. Thanks

Not my post, but, the carbide dies size the brass to a parallel cylinder, alot of chambers are tapered. The steel dies size back to the true, originally designed dimensions, tapered. I hope this helps.

[pull the trigger]

Check with NOE for both regular expanders and powder through versions that can be used with a Lee die. They are available in different sizes or if needed could possibly be special made. A quick call to them if you have questions is usually answered within 24 hours and they are very helpful. I use the powder through version on .38sp, .357mag, and 9mm with my Pro Auto Disc for all my pistol loading except my .41mag.

I wish someone still made Dillon powder funnels a little oversized for cast boolits too.

[JimB..]

I wish someone still made Dillon powder funnels a little oversized for cast boolits too.

Double Alpha for a few calibers.

[Outer Rondacker]

Not my post, but, the carbide dies size the brass to a parallel cylinder, alot of chambers are tapered. The steel dies size back to the true, originally designed dimensions, tapered. I hope this helps.

Thanks for clearing that up for me and some others I am sure.

[JimB..]

Not my post, but, the carbide dies size the brass to a parallel cylinder, alot of chambers are tapered. The steel dies size back to the true, originally designed dimensions, tapered. I hope this helps.

All 9mm chambers are tapered, and I think the bottleneck pistol calibers are tapered, but isn’t every other pistol caliber straight walled? 38/357, 45acp, 44, 41, 45LC are all straight. 9mm is the exception rather than the rule.

FWIW, I keep a set of 9mm steel dies for when I want the loaded rounds to look best, but it doesn’t affect loading or shooting in any way that I’ve noticed.

[Nobade]

The cartridges as manufactured are straight but most chambers have a slight amount of taper in them for easier extraction. The main problem with carbide dies is they make the case too small all the way down, and usually quite a bit smaller than the chamber. The steel dies are much closer to what the cases should look like and they have two diameters, in that the body is not sized much but where the bullet sits is reduced a little more so it can be opened up with the expander. If you look at some rounds after they have been loaded on carbide dies and a bullet seated, the bullet area is quite a bit bigger than the body of the case. That is not beneficial and it is a big part of what the cowboy dies and old steel dies avoid.

[castmiester]

Not my post, but, the carbide dies size the brass to a parallel cylinder, alot of chambers are tapered. The steel dies size back to the true, originally designed dimensions, tapered. I hope this helps.

that doesn't change the fact of oversized cases, sized with a standard FL die, that bulge with oversized cast bullets and chamber difficult or not at at. How do solve that problem ?

[20:1]

that doesn't change the fact of oversized cases, sized with a standard FL die, that bulge with oversized cast bullets and chamber difficult or not at at. How do solve that problem ?

By either not using carbide sizing dies that do not size to SAAMI spec, or by using older steel sizing dies as mentioned above that leave the case slightly tapered to the case mouth. Also, most sizing dies are designed for use with jacketed bullets of nominal diameter for caliber like .355, .358, .451, and so forth. Cast bullets are often sized over nominal bore dimensions like .356-7, ,359-.360, .452-.453, for proper bore fit, which often differs from manufacturers "nominal" dimensions. A splendid example is 9mm. Nominal jacketed bullet diameter of .355, but many actually have bores of .357 & .358. Sometime try measuring the O.D. of an unsized case in 2-3 locations, and then size the case in your dies and compare to see what the difference actually is. Most currently manufactured sizing dies leave the case dimensions seriously undersized. This doesn't matter with jacketed bullet, they're not affected, but cast bullets are.

[castmiester]

By either not using carbide sizing dies that do not size to SAAMI spec, or by using older steel sizing dies as mentioned above that leave the case slightly tapered to the case mouth. Also, most sizing dies are designed for use with jacketed bullets of nominal diameter for caliber like .355, .358, .451, and so forth. Cast bullets are often sized over nominal bore dimensions like .356-7, ,359-.360, .452-.453, for proper bore fit, which often differs from manufacturers "nominal" dimensions. A splendid example is 9mm. Nominal jacketed bullet diameter of .355, but many actually have bores of .357 & .358. Sometime try measuring the O.D. of an unsized case in 2-3 locations, and then size the case in your dies and compare to see what the difference actually is. Most currently manufactured sizing dies leave the case dimensions seriously undersized. This doesn't matter with jacketed bullet, they're not affected, but cast bullets are.

You're telling what I already know, but not how to prevent bulging cases from being "seriously undersized".

Any jacketed bullet I seated were .357 not .355 for my .357/.38, maybe for your 9mm.

And to SAMMI spec?? My cowboy dies are not sammi, that's why I use them. They size larger than my carbide dies. Or what you're saying steel dies? I don't think I'm missing anything here but maybe I am ?

By either not using carbide sizing dies that do not size to SAAMI spec, or by using older steel sizing dies as mentioned above that leave the case slightly tapered to the case mouth

Yeah Cowboyt dies....what other dies don't size to SAMMI?? and size too much, I never saw them or even heard about them.

[JimB..]

It is incorrect to assume generally that carbide dies do not size pistol brass consistent with Sammi spec, the 9mm issue being the exception. Otherwise SAMMI calls for straight cases, and carbide dies deliver straight cases. Now they may be over or under sized, that’s a different issue. I also tend to doubt that steel sizing dies are tapered, that would make them out of spec (again 9mm excepted) but perhaps they wear such that they become slightly tapered in use.

I can neither confirm or refute the assertion that chambers are tapered. I wouldn’t be surprised either way, but that doesn’t affect the question of fired and sized brass being within spec or not. Many of us have brass that is dedicated to a specific gun, we prep that brass for that gun and happily ignore the SAMMI specification.

@castmiester asks “how to prevent bulging cases from being “seriously undersized.” I think he means how to prevent case mouths from being sized down more than is necessary to give him the bullet tension he desires. He doesn’t want a die that returns the case mouth to spec, he wants it left oversized. In the rifle world this can be handled by having one sizing die for the body of the case and another for the neck, but for pistol just hone the die to the size you want. You can probably do an acceptable job increasing the size of a steel sizing die, but I’d contract out for a carbide die.

Redding was selling dual carbide ring sizing dies for a while, one larger ring for the full case and one smaller that just sized the neck. Cool idea, but without the ability to order a specific size ring size I’m not sure it’s all that useful. I bought a few, but haven’t used them yet.

@castmeister, I have the RCBS cowboy dies in several calibers and I believe that they have the same size carbide ring as their standard dies. The expander is larger in the cowboy set, so the brass is sized down as usual and then expanded more than usual. That extra work reduces the life of the brass, so you might want to have the die honed to a larger size.

[castmiester]

Jim. As I stated before, I measured the expanders of my cowboy and steel carbide, they measure the same diameter. I load .359 cast, sized with the Cowboy FL die and no bulge.

@castmeister, I have the RCBS cowboy dies in several calibers and I believe that they have the same size carbide ring as their standard dies. The expander is larger in the cowboy set, so the brass is sized down as usual and then expanded more than usual. That extra work reduces the life of the brass, so you might want to have the die honed to a larger size.

Guess the only way to know for sure is to pin gauge them and compare.

What max diameter can a cast be that won't bulge the case ?