Alternatives to lead and other components

[ebb]

It looks as if the only thing even remotely close to a low enough melting temperature to cast bullets other than lead, would be zinc or aluminum. Am i missing another material that could work? I have seen some indication that some here have tried zinc, but no one screaming the benefits. I would be worried about removing zinc or aluminum form a fouled barrel. Swaging seems like an option but seems way to time consuming and expensive to get set up in. It looks to me like we will all need to be making primers, bullets and powder before too long if we are going to continue to shoot. I think that we need to as a group fund a coop to start making primers soon. If a corporation was formed and everybody from several of the shooting websites got together and chipped in 2 or 3 hundred $ each and started our own primer plant and we only bought primers from ourselves, we would be funding our sport instead of corporate wall street thieves. I am sorry about rambling but it looks like we are being pushed out of existence. Many are upset that a foreign firm is buying most of the ammo and component production in the USA, it remains to be seen if it will be good or bad.

[Dusty Bannister]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...h+cast+bullets

[ACC]

It looks as if the only thing even remotely close to a low enough melting temperature to cast bullets other than lead, would be zinc or aluminum. Am i missing another material that could work? I have seen some indication that some here have tried zinc, but no one screaming the benefits. I would be worried about removing zinc or aluminum form a fouled barrel. Swaging seems like an option but seems way to time consuming and expensive to get set up in. It looks to me like we will all need to be making primers, bullets and powder before too long if we are going to continue to shoot. I think that we need to as a group fund a coop to start making primers soon. If a corporation was formed and everybody from several of the shooting websites got together and chipped in 2 or 3 hundred $ each and started our own primer plant and we only bought primers from ourselves, we would be funding our sport instead of corporate wall street thieves. I am sorry about rambling but it looks like we are being pushed out of existence. Many are upset that a foreign firm is buying most of the ammo and component production in the USA, it remains to be seen if it will be good or bad.

If you use any metal besides a lead alloy and you are using a Lee product to do it, it voids the warranty. Found out the hard way.
ACC

[fredj338]

Babbit maybe. Zinc requires quite a high temp to pour well. Lead based alloys are where its at. Pretty easy to find lead based alloy, berms at an outdoor range.

[405grain]

A much easier method: Become one of the Wall Street Thieves and then you'll be able to afford reloading components at the expense of the peasants. But, remember not to light your cigars at the loading bench with $100 bills because of the fire danger. Sarcasm aside, the best time proven method to avoid supply shortages is, when components are available, buy cheap and stack deep. Shortages go in cycles; the foreign conflicts where the US is supplying the munitions won't last forever, and bumbling executive branches of the Federal Govt. don't last either. When the supply returns stock up, because there will always be another shortage later.

[Winger Ed.]

A lot of folks have already switched over to Zinc.
There's a few youtube videos of guys doing it, and telling how.

The plus of Zinc is that although it only weighs about 60% of Lead from the same mold,
you can push them on up to jacketed speeds, and they might not need lube or powder coat.

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I cast my bullets with Babbitt although it only takes a small amount so still require lead. Babbitt mix though is tricky to make flow consistently through a bottom pour pot.

[deces]

Hold on to those zinc wheel weights.

[dondiego]

There is so much lead out there.........why?

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I casted with zinc and it was okay, but the babbitt is slick as snot...just keep it hot and pour it fast.

[deces]

There is so much lead out there.........why?

Very high ballistic coefficient to weight ratio.

[mnewcomb59]

Well the BC on a cast zinc bullet is much worse than if it was cast out of lead. The zinc bullet is cutting the same size hole through the air and it only weighs 60% what the lead bullet does. Then factor in that you are probably shooting it faster than the lead because it is lighter, and know that BC decreases with velocity. So unless you have some hard numbers from a lab radar I would assume a .25 BC bullet in lead would only have about a .15 BC or less in zinc.

A 200 grain bullet mold would make about a 120 grain bullet in zinc. A 120 grain lead bullet would have a better BC than a 120 grain zinc bullet if they had the same ogive because the lead bullet has much less surface area and length.

[dtknowles]

Well the BC on a cast zinc bullet is much worse than if it was cast out of lead. The zinc bullet is cutting the same size hole through the air and it only weighs 60% what the lead bullet does. Then factor in that you are probably shooting it faster than the lead because it is lighter, and know that BC decreases with velocity. So unless you have some hard numbers from a lab radar I would assume a .25 BC bullet in lead would only have about a .15 BC or less in zinc.

A 200 grain bullet mold would make about a 120 grain bullet in zinc. A 120 grain lead bullet would have a better BC than a 120 grain zinc bullet if they had the same ogive because the lead bullet has much less surface area and length.

Some of this is not quite right but the sense of it is correct. Check you aerodynamics texts regarding length over diameter for lowest drag. Optimum L/D is 3 for subsonic and goes up with mach number. No, a 125 gr. lead bullet will not have a higher BC than a 125 gr. zinc bullet. Your assumption that greater surface area means greater drag is flawed. Until you exceed an L/D of three, longer is better drag wise.

Of course we have twist rate and powder volume drawbacks of longer bullets.

We have monolithic copper alloy bullets and you don't hear people complaining about low BC for those bullets.

People who love big meplats or giant hollow points don't worry about BC either.

Terminal ballistics for zinc bullets needs more exploration if they are going to be used for hunting or self-defense.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Do people alloy their zinc for casting bullets? What might make it fill out better?

[Winger Ed.]

Do people alloy their zinc for casting bullets? What might make it fill out better?

I've been led to believe it's used as pure as what the modern generation wheel weights are made from.

Nobody has mentioned fill out problems from what I've found.
It may be pretty 'thin' and have a good flow/fill out just as it is when melted.
However, you will need certain type pots and heat sources to get the heat on up and handle it properly.
(Propane burners, Iron, Stainless Steel)

Depending on where ya are, as Lead dries up, it is the future of casting.
If you get off into it, I'd sure encourage doing a fair amount of research,
and go to a few classes given by Professor youtube.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Do people alloy their zinc for casting bullets? What might make it fill out better?

I haven't seen anyone use pure zinc for casting bullets, they use the alloy that WW's are diecast from, typically ZAMAK 3. Which contains about 3% aluminum and a fraction of a percent of Copper. Tin and Zinc get along well together in a alloy. So those would be the first things I'd use to try and modify a ZAMAK 3 or other Zinc Alloy with.

https://www.dynacast.com/en/knowledg...metals/zamak-3

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

Am i missing another material that could work? .

I would use the Lead-free alloy that Rotometals sell.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...ee-alloy.5627/

[mnewcomb59]

We have monolithic copper alloy bullets and you don't hear people complaining about low BC for those bullets.



Tim

Tim you are misunderstanding me. You have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.


Now we have two different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive.

For light-for-caliber bullets, if you lengthen the ogive on the less dense bullet and add a boat tail it can be more aerodynamic than the flat base lead core bullet, which is obvious. However, I am talking about keeping the same ogive and base, but lengthening the bearing surface to make the low density bullet have equal weight to the high density bullet. In this situation, with equal weight, equal ogive, equal base bullets, the longer bullet will have a lower BC.

Lube grooves and pressure reducing grooves like old barnes had dramatically lowers BC. A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet. Even if they were smooth sided, the bearing surface of spitzer bullets causes aerodynamic drag because the air rides in a laminar flow along the whole ogive and bearing surface. The turbulent flow around a flat point causes the air to not interact as much with the bearing surface and lube grooves but even still if you increase bearing surface without increasing weight the BC goes down.

A tungsten bullet in the size and shape of a 308 110 VMAX would weigh about 187 grains. Keep that same VMAX ogive and base, now make a 187 grain zinc bullet. The zinc would be 1.75 inches long in a mold that would make a 315 grain 308 bullet in lead. The tungsten bullet will be far more aerodynamic.

Barnes TTSX bullets can only approach lead core bullets in BC when the bullet weights are low for caliber and the extra length goes into a boat tail and longer ogive. Once you have enough lead in a given caliber to get a long ogive and efficient boat tail, copper can't keep up. Sure a 125 copper 308 can be a more aerodynamic shape than a 125 flat base stubby ogive lead bullet. In any equal weight bullets with identical ogives and boat tails, the BC is worse in copper.

[20:1]

Babbit maybe. Zinc requires quite a high temp to pour well. Lead based alloys are where its at. Pretty easy to find lead based alloy, berms at an outdoor range.

I tried babbit several years ago. The bullet noses broke off at the taper crimp line when feeding from the magazine.

[dtknowles]

Tim you are misunderstanding me. You have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.


Now we have two different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive.

For light-for-caliber bullets, if you lengthen the ogive on the less dense bullet and add a boat tail it can be more aerodynamic than the flat base lead core bullet, which is obvious. However, I am talking about keeping the same ogive and base, but lengthening the bearing surface to make the low density bullet have equal weight to the high density bullet. In this situation, with equal weight, equal ogive, equal base bullets, the longer bullet will have a lower BC.

Lube grooves and pressure reducing grooves like old barnes had dramatically lowers BC. A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet. Even if they were smooth sided, the bearing surface of spitzer bullets causes aerodynamic drag because the air rides in a laminar flow along the whole ogive and bearing surface. The turbulent flow around a flat point causes the air to not interact as much with the bearing surface and lube grooves but even still if you increase bearing surface without increasing weight the BC goes down.

A tungsten bullet in the size and shape of a 308 110 VMAX would weigh about 187 grains. Keep that same VMAX ogive and base, now make a 187 grain zinc bullet. The zinc would be 1.75 inches long in a mold that would make a 315 grain 308 bullet in lead. The tungsten bullet will be far more aerodynamic.

Barnes TTSX bullets can only approach lead core bullets in BC when the bullet weights are low for caliber and the extra length goes into a boat tail and longer ogive. Once you have enough lead in a given caliber to get a long ogive and efficient boat tail, copper can't keep up. Sure a 125 copper 308 can be a more aerodynamic shape than a 125 flat base stubby ogive lead bullet. In any equal weight bullets with identical ogives and boat tails, the BC is worse in copper.

Agreed, if you have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.

This is will not always be true - "different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive." I have run models in a wind tunnel and lengthening the projectile reduced the drag up until the L/D exceeded 3. What you claim only is valid if the denser bullet is not short also if you are going to have a longer bullet why not choose a more optimal shape instead of just using the short bullet's blunt ogive and why not add a boattail.

Why would "A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet." The zinc bullet mould does not even need lube grooves, zinc bullets don't need lube. I expect that you are speaking of using traditional moulds designed for lead and not moulds that don't have grooves like some use with powder coat or paper patch. I also would be easy to modify lube groove molds to eliminate or make the grooves shallower. Could use a design like the Lee Tumble Lube bullets.

Now if we are talking about BC we must be thinking about bullets for longer range shooting. Shooting targets at ranges less than 100 yards the BC almost does not matter.

Zinc pistol bullets I think the biggest issue is going to be powder volume. Some pistol cases have very limited case volume so you will not be able to use slower powders and have factory type velocities.

Clearly lead is better but in some cases the difference will not matter, zinc bullets will work fine and should be cheaper. Not sure why the manufactures don't use them is some ammo.

Tim