The Book of Life

[Alabama358]

The rebellion happened. God wiped the world and set it back up. And put us here to have dominion. We're spirit beings that God knew before.

When you say "God wiped the world and set it back up" are you saying...

1- he wiped it and did a reset before Adam? Because this is when we were given dominion according to

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

or

2 - he wiped it and did a reset with Noah and the flood? But in this case, the to give us dominion over it wouldn't make sense as he had already did that about 10 generations prior to the flood

We pass once through the water as humans with the free will opportunity to love the father or not, our decision.

I think we are on the same page here if "We pass once through the water as humans" Is just a loquacious spiritually cool way of saying born of a woman with the free will to accept or reject salvation

That's what it's all about and that's all in scripture but you do have to study.

When you infer that if people were to just study that they can catch up with your understanding of scripture, without actually offering any scripture references (and please no more You-tube videos) ... it actually appears a tad dodgy. Similar to a person defending a pre-trib position without any scripture to offer and falling back on "you just need to study more so that you can rightfully divide the word. Referencing 2 Timothy 2:15

I am pretty sure that in my last post where you said that "That this current world was set up as a remedy to the rebellion against our creator is basic Christian theology.
I asked for (not demanded) chapter and verse to support this idea for this basic Christian theology concept.

[Good Cheer]

Good morning Alabama.
Yes sir, that God wiped the Earth clean before Adam.

About me saying people have to study, lots of people don't and they don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with what they already have accepted. Voice something that differs from their accepted paradigm and you are trodding upon sacred comfort zones. Not being inclined towards patient teaching to deaf ears, to overcome emotional rejection of what scripture records I would just as soon respond with what amounts to "Look it up: It's in the book!" Did I say that I'm not a good teacher?

Genesis 1 is a great example of why that is and it relates to the matter at hand. It says that in the beginning God created this reality with the Earth and the heavens and afterwards the Earth became a waste, without form. And elsewhere in scripture (Isaiah 45:18 comes to mind) using the same Hebrew it is said that God did not create the world in vain (to be a waste, without form) but to be inhabited, highlighting the fact that the Earth was afterwards made to be without form. Elsewhere we're told about why; the rebellion.
Another example would be Jeremiah 4 and how people squabble over what the chapter is even about. Is it warning of the destruction of the land that was to take place when the Babylonians marched in or as some claim is it about the Romans? Ah but wait, what's that in verse 25 about there being no man (adam). Then there's the parts about the mountains trembling and the hills moving lightly (I'm going by the KJV there), and no birds (even Noah still had birds!) and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord and the heavens were black... Not even the Romans were bad enough to drive away all the birds and surely they didn't have earthquake machines and weather warfare yet.

So any how, I go with Isaiah 28:10, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.
Step by step.

Nice picture. Not me but a pretty good illustration.

[.429&H110]

"Sacred comfort zones"? Do not look to the world for sacred!

Genesis uses our word "void" I wonder if Hebrew does too.

Void is different from zero- kind of like cancelled- a voided check.

Does that imply something was voided? "...was void" using the past tense?

I don't know. This Bible is a deep bottomless study, and we have only one lifetime to study it.
The Word is the only Truth reference we have. Is the light on or off, one or zero? That's Genesis One.
The Book has changed lives, has saved people from themselves: that is something I cannot do.
I am glad I found Him. Where's your joy?

[ioon44]

Our word void is Strongs H922 Transliteration bôû Pronunciation bo'-hoo meaning emptiness, void, waste.

Strong’s Definitions
בֹּהוּ bôhûw, bo'-hoo; from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:—emptiness, void.

[.429&H110]

Boo-hoo? Wow! It's awesome where the old language pops up!

[Good Cheer]

There's just no substitute for taking scripture back to language roots and trying to learn what was meant rather than just taking someone else's translation and running with it. That and trying to understand the idioms of speech are where good teachers can really help a lot. Brilliant minds have been studying this for many centuries and we get to benefit from their work, to be lifted upon their shoulders. But still, we need to check them out because they're just people.

[dverna]

There's just no substitute for taking scripture back to language roots and trying to learn what was meant rather than just taking someone else's translation and running with it. That and trying to understand the idioms of speech are where good teachers can really help a lot. Brilliant minds have been studying this for many centuries and we get to benefit from their work, to be lifted upon their shoulders. But still, we need to check them out because they're just people.

There are few who can trace scripture to the original languages.

I agree that people who have done the translations could have made mistakes…or even altered things to fit a narrative. Most Christian’s will not accept that and believe what is written in English is the inspired word of God and perfect. I am not one of them.

I can accept an imperfect Bible and have gone so far as to believe God can be almighty and also imperfect. There is too much evidence in the Bible to conclude otherwise.

I started this thread because the concept of the Book of Life demonstrates this. So far no one has convinced me otherwise.

[justindad]

Foreknowledge is not causation.

[ioon44]

There are few who can trace scripture to the original languages.

I agree that people who have done the translations could have made mistakes…or even altered things to fit a narrative. Most Christian’s will not accept that and believe what is written in English is the inspired word of God and perfect. I am not one of them.

I can accept an imperfect Bible and have gone so far as to believe God can be almighty and also imperfect. There is too much evidence in the Bible to conclude otherwise.

I started this thread because the concept of the Book of Life demonstrates this. So far no one has convinced me otherwise.

Psalm 18:30

New International Version
As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

New Living Translation
God’s way is perfect. All the LORD’s promises prove true. He is a shield for all who look to him for protection.

English Standard Version
This God—his way is perfect; the word of the LORD proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.

Berean Standard Bible
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

King James Bible
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

New King James Version
As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the LORD is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

New American Standard Bible
As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the LORD is refined; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

[HWooldridge]

Foreknowledge is not causation.

Correct - that has been my position ever since I heard predestination being discussed. Everyone has free will and we make our personal choices accordingly, but the Lord knows what is in our hearts and where our everlasting souls will ultimately go. If it were not so, we would simply be puppets, which would absolve us of any decision-making responsibilities.

[Good Cheer]

There are few who can trace scripture to the original languages.

I agree that people who have done the translations could have made mistakes…or even altered things to fit a narrative. Most Christian’s will not accept that and believe what is written in English is the inspired word of God and perfect. I am not one of them.

I can accept an imperfect Bible and have gone so far as to believe God can be almighty and also imperfect. There is too much evidence in the Bible to conclude otherwise.

I started this thread because the concept of the Book of Life demonstrates this. So far no one has convinced me otherwise.

About what was said in scripture before the old Englishmen and others had their way with it, the heavy lifting has been done for us. That's what makes the King Jams such a precious resource, having so many concordances, dictionaries and commentaries keyed specifically to it. My favorite study tools are Bullinger's edition of the King James (almost a hundred years old now) with its appendices and the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (pre-Nelson). Green's Interlinear is wonderful also but not as crucial.

What you are convinced of is what you accepted into your mind, your choice. That's why I keep wanting to study.

[Alabama358]

Good morning Cheer,
I strongly disagree and will pass on the whole God has destroyed the earth twice to try to deal with rebellious fallen whatevers Gap theory thing

Genesis 1 is a great example of why that is and it relates to the matter at hand. It says that in the beginning God created this reality with the Earth and the heavens and afterwards the Earth became a waste, without form.

Lets start with...that is NOT what Genesis:1 says, but your right it is a great example of something... mans ability to torture scripture to get it to say something not intended.

That is more like a slightly re-worded quote from Cyrus Ingerson Scofield notes from a Scofield study bible. (The same Scholar/teacher/expert/theologinon/Lawyer so called blahblahblah.. standing on the shoulders of other national treasures like John Nelson Darby, James Hall Brookes, James Inglis and the like that all helped promote works like the Gap theory, Pre-trib rapture, Dispensationalism and such...

A brief Google search of the Late Great Mr. Scofield will turn up stuff like

In 1866, he married Leontine LeBeau Cerrè, a member of a prominent French Catholic family in St. Louis.[6] Scofield apprenticed in the law office of his brother-in-law and then worked in the St. Louis assessor's office before moving to Atchison, Kansas, in late 1869. In 1871, Scofield was elected to the Kansas House of Representatives, first from Atchison for one year and then from Nemaha County, for a second. In 1873 he worked for the election of John J. Ingalls as senator from Kansas, and when Ingalls won, the new senator had Scofield appointed U. S. District Attorney for Kansas—at 29, the youngest in the country.[7] Nevertheless, that same year Scofield was forced to resign "under a cloud of scandal" because of questionable financial transactions, which may have included accepting bribes from railroads, stealing political contributions intended for Ingalls, and securing bank promissory notes by forging signatures.[8] It is possible Scofield was jailed on forgery charges, although there is no extant evidence in the public records.[9]
Perhaps in part because of his self-confessed heavy drinking,[10] Scofield abandoned his wife and two daughters during this period.[11] Leontine Cerrè Scofield divorced him on grounds of desertion in 1883, and the same year Scofield married Hettie Hall von Wartz, with whom he eventually had a son.[12]

What Genesis:1 actually says...
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What Genesis:1 Does Not say...(but if we are going to annotate scripture with THE GAP theory, lets do it up right)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void;When I say "void, bôhûw, bo'-hoo" what I am really saying is that my creation was hijacked by a group of fallen/rebellious/evil demons for millions/billions of years...
so as a remedy I had to destroy everything and then created man in my image and gave him dominion over the world.
Only that didn't work because those darn stubborn fallen/rebellious/evil Giants came back again,
so I had to destroy the world a second time by means of the Great flood during the time of Noah... but come to think of it that didn't work out either because those stubborn Giants are still around throughout the old testament.
Nevertheless this is the reason for your Carbon Dated Billion year old fossils.
I don't think I will use my Prophets of the Old Testament nor my Son or his disciples in the New Testament to give any clear teachings on this matter... but have no fear, somewhere in the 18th century AD, I will provide you with some scholars to help you connect the dots and properly align Scripture and your modern day "Science so called" and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The above mocking was just in fun to try to illustrate just how goofy and ridicules it is to try and force things like "THE GAP" into scripture that isn't there.

There is a reason...
It is not taught in the Old Testament
It is not taught by Christ
It is not taught by Christ's disciples


I think I have spurred this horse until the knees buckled and have little to no chance of swaying anyone that has fully bought in on the subject at hand, (my illustration was geared more for folks sitting on the fence or completely new to the subject) so I probably wont have much more to say and will wait for a more profitable subject to come along.

Happy Hunting...

[.429&H110]

My Koine word of the week is aporia. Irreconcilable.

A = without
Poria = passage
it's like the XOR gate where two things cannot be true (or false) at the same time or you get zero.

St. Paul referenced "All Cretans are liars"--aporia.
The Greeks could not agree on anything except that triangles had three sides.

A good way to solve the translation problem is to pick one and get in your Honda Accord.
You can get six Baptists into a Honda if they are in an accord....
That is the reason I cherish the KJV, warts and all, at my church it's the Word, we are in accord.

Genesis is real, a miraculous event we try to understand, but we see what we want to see.
If you believe the earth is 6,000,000,000 years old you are only off by times 10^6.

Tip O'Neil once said "Lose a million here and a million there, pretty soon it's big money"

[Good Cheer]

Good morning Cheer,
I strongly disagree and will pass on the whole God has destroyed the earth twice to try to deal with rebellious fallen whatevers Gap theory thing


Lets start with...that is NOT what Genesis:1 says, but your right it is a great example of something... mans ability to torture scripture to get it to say something not intended.

That is more like a slightly re-worded quote from Cyrus Ingerson Scofield notes from a Scofield study bible. (The same Scholar/teacher/expert/theologinon/Lawyer so called blahblahblah.. standing on the shoulders of other national treasures like John Nelson Darby, James Hall Brookes, James Inglis and the like that all helped promote works like the Gap theory, Pre-trib rapture, Dispensationalism and such...

A brief Google search of the Late Great Mr. Scofield will turn up stuff like

In 1866, he married Leontine LeBeau Cerrè, a member of a prominent French Catholic family in St. Louis.[6] Scofield apprenticed in the law office of his brother-in-law and then worked in the St. Louis assessor's office before moving to Atchison, Kansas, in late 1869. In 1871, Scofield was elected to the Kansas House of Representatives, first from Atchison for one year and then from Nemaha County, for a second. In 1873 he worked for the election of John J. Ingalls as senator from Kansas, and when Ingalls won, the new senator had Scofield appointed U. S. District Attorney for Kansas—at 29, the youngest in the country.[7] Nevertheless, that same year Scofield was forced to resign "under a cloud of scandal" because of questionable financial transactions, which may have included accepting bribes from railroads, stealing political contributions intended for Ingalls, and securing bank promissory notes by forging signatures.[8] It is possible Scofield was jailed on forgery charges, although there is no extant evidence in the public records.[9]
Perhaps in part because of his self-confessed heavy drinking,[10] Scofield abandoned his wife and two daughters during this period.[11] Leontine Cerrè Scofield divorced him on grounds of desertion in 1883, and the same year Scofield married Hettie Hall von Wartz, with whom he eventually had a son.[12]

What Genesis:1 actually says...
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What Genesis:1 Does Not say...(but if we are going to annotate scripture with THE GAP theory, lets do it up right)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void;When I say "void, bôhûw, bo'-hoo" what I am really saying is that my creation was hijacked by a group of fallen/rebellious/evil demons for millions/billions of years...
so as a remedy I had to destroy everything and then created man in my image and gave him dominion over the world.
Only that didn't work because those darn stubborn fallen/rebellious/evil Giants came back again,
so I had to destroy the world a second time by means of the Great flood during the time of Noah... but come to think of it that didn't work out either because those stubborn Giants are still around throughout the old testament.
Nevertheless this is the reason for your Carbon Dated Billion year old fossils.
I don't think I will use my Prophets of the Old Testament nor my Son or his disciples in the New Testament to give any clear teachings on this matter... but have no fear, somewhere in the 18th century AD, I will provide you with some scholars to help you connect the dots and properly align Scripture and your modern day "Science so called" and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The above mocking was just in fun to try to illustrate just how goofy and ridicules it is to try and force things like "THE GAP" into scripture that isn't there.

There is a reason...
It is not taught in the Old Testament
It is not taught by Christ
It is not taught by Christ's disciples


I think I have spurred this horse until the knees buckled and have little to no chance of swaying anyone that has fully bought in on the subject at hand, (my illustration was geared more for folks sitting on the fence or completely new to the subject) so I probably wont have much more to say and will wait for a more profitable subject to come along.

Happy Hunting...

In amongst my study materials I actually do have a copy of the Scofield bible that I picked up at a charity resale shop in Nova Scotia almost twenty years ago. Boy howdy was that investigation ever a fun job. By the time I was done there the client wanted me to relocate into Michigan and to take over the whole project. Any way, back to the matter of Genesis 1:2.

Geology, paleontology and archaeology show us some interesting things about our world and ourselves. By investigative study we've learned that our world is really old and has changed a lot over a really long time, in between the time when our father created it and when He created us. We're a bunch of newbies but this old world is really old, extinction events and all. So not only do we have the text itself telling us what happened (eh, unless you want to trust those old Englishmen) but we have physical evidence that corroborates the word. Those slide rule cats are getting closer to the bible all the time.

There's good science and there's bad science. There's good scripture understanding and there's bad understanding.
When good science and good scripture understanding come together it's a wonderful thing to behold.
Why you'd want to throw both out the window beats me but it's OK with me just the same.

PS,
Scofield didn't invent the Hebrew or what it means. Heh, I don't think he wrote the notes to "his" bible either but that's a whole nuther can of worms.

Later.

[Alabama358]

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Maybe the modern day scholars have a better source then a burning bush and certainly must have a better understanding of Hebrew and a firmer grip of that times vernacular then Moses did. He obviously didn't have the advantage of a blue letter bible so he missed the true meaning of void or bôhûw

But then again he seems pretty sure of the 6 literal days thing... maybe the burning bush forgot to copy him on the Gap Theory memo and he was just passing fake news... Thank goodness that we have modern day scholars to fact check him and set the record straight.


Sorry, I know I said I was finished... but I just couldn't help myself.

[dverna]

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Maybe the modern day scholars have a better source then a burning bush and certainly must have a better understanding of Hebrew and a firmer grip of that times vernacular then Moses did. He obviously didn't have the advantage of a blue letter bible so he missed the true meaning of void or bôhûw

But then again he seems pretty sure of the 6 literal days thing... maybe the burning bush forgot to copy him on the Gap Theory memo and he was just passing fake news... Thank goodness that we have modern day scholars to fact check him and set the record straight.


Sorry, I know I said I was finished... but I just couldn't help myself.

And that my friend is only one part of the Bible I have an issue with. If I must accept every day was a 24 hour day, then I cannot accept the Bible as 100% accurate or 100% the devine word of God.

If I am wrong God will forgive me. He will be less inclined to look on me favorably if I accept something I cannot believe in order to “fit in”. The church I go to requires I accept scripture as the whole and complete truth. Therefore, I will never be a member but I get a lot from the sermons preached by the pastor there. The pastor makes me think.

[Alabama358]

And that my friend is only one part of the Bible I have an issue with. If I must accept every day was a 24 hour day, then I cannot accept the Bible as 100% accurate or 100% the devine word of God.

Why?
You believe he is God the creator
You believe he created everything
You just can not believe he did it in the time frame that he said he did it.
That is some narrow minded thinking if you don't mind me saying so.

Genesis 1:13-14
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If folks would just make it half way down the page to verse 14, he tells you that he knows the difference between days, years and seasons.
Sun comes up (morning)...Sun goes down (evening) = 1 day

Right in the middle of the week between the 3rd and 4th day, he even stops to tell you exactly what the unit of measure is, and refers to the evening and morning so you wont be confused on what he is calling a day.

It is so simple that you would have to enlist the help of a scholar or an expert to misunderstand it

[dverna]

Why?
You believe he is God the creator
You believe he created everything
You just can not believe he did it in the time frame that he said he did it.
That is some narrow minded thinking if you don't mind me saying so.

Genesis 1:13-14
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If folks would just make it half way down the page to verse 14, he tells you that he knows the difference between days, years and seasons.
Sun comes up (morning)...Sun goes down (evening) = 1 day

Right in the middle of the week between the 3rd and 4th day, he even stops to tell you exactly what the unit of measure is, and refers to the evening and morning so you wont be confused on what he is calling a day.

It is so simple that you would have to enlist the help of a scholar or an expert to misunderstand it

I understand what you are saying. Regrettably, I cannot "pencil it out". I cannot believe dinosaurs and men walked the earth at the same time. There are passages talking about giants, and very few that could be about dinosaurs if one wants to make the stretch "to believe". It seems a creature that large would have earned a bit more "press" than lions in the Bible.

Neither can I wrap my head around creation being completed in six 24 hour days or the age of the universe as 6-8,000 years old. There are more things that do not make sense to me. But maybe in another thread.

My roadblocks are partly a result of decades of not believing in God. It is also in how I am wired. I was an engineer for many years and have a science based mind set.

My acceptance of Jesus came late in my life. I knew there was something missing and I made the choice to accept Him. It has been life changing.

I am left in "no man's land". If I must accept the Bible as 100% accurate to be a Christian, I cannot make that leap of faith. I am planning to meet with my Pastor to talk things out. Our church has this message, "Meeting people where they are and moving them to where God wants them to be". I will see....

BTW, thank you for trying to help.

[Alabama358]

BTW, thank you for trying to help.

Your welcome...

Break the lead point off that pencil and put it in a drawer, it will make life easier

[HWooldridge]

It is worth noting that some respected Jewish rabbis, who we might assume to be reasonably well-educated on the subject, were judging the Earth to be much older than the literal interpretation in Genesis, with estimates up to 2.5 billion years (and these opinions were being written in the 11th and 12th centuries).

The Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Word of God and codified by other men over a long time period. I can imagine Moses being shown all of creation in a vision, and God conveying this stretch of time was the first Day, the second, etc. Moses then naturally recorded what happened as it was related to him.

Don, I'm with you in the belief that the Cosmos is quite old, but I don't really care if we have the age calculated correctly within a billion years of conception. There is nothing in my mind that sees a conflict with a Supreme God existing before the Big Bang, and there is no way of knowing whether we are living in the hundredth iteration of a Universe. The concept of a creation which is billions of years old is still awe inspiring, especially if you consider everything that had to happen just so we could discuss it on an internet forum. I can speculate that God is chuckling to Himself over the whole thing.