Cold bore only squib problem

[243winxb]

Keep pressures & velocities at or near maximum.

[PAndy]

I noticed slow cold barrel shots with jacketed and plated bullets in my rifles years ago. Mild loads. I did a lot of chronograph testing in the yard. It's a real pain to set up a chronograph day after day to shoot three shots. anyway, I never saw a slow first shot with a lead bullet, either lubed or coated. Only copper bullets did it. I'm guessing if I was shooting max loads I would not have noticed it. I thought it would turn out to be powder position but in my case it was not. YMMV FWIW

[MWestern]

Original poster: when you say squib load...does that mean the velocity is slower or does it mean the primer doesn't go bang?

Several of us have had best accuracy and function with tc flat point bullets...like Missouri 125 and 140 gr

The primer ignites but the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. I tried Missouri 158 coated but accuracy was terrible. 13” groups at 50 yards.

I tried 11 grains of imr 4227 and all bullets cleared the barrel but I could still feel recoil differences between some of the rounds. Accuracy showed it too, it was poor. Saturday I shot 2 5 shot groups of 1” at 50 yards. Went home and loaded up 50 rounds with that recipe. Next Saturday, I didn’t touch the rifle, that load now has 10” groups at 50 yards and inconsistent recoil with lots of unburned powder everywhere. The only difference was the first week was 45 and this week was 30 degrees.

I am going to bump it up to 12.5 and try again. For some reason I can’t get consistent ignition. After seeing the erratic groups I might circle back to the Missouri 158s.

I have new starline 357 brass sized and trimmed. I don’t use any lube on pistol brass. Crimp is done with a Lee FCD, medium crimp (contact plus 3/4 turn).

[elmacgyver0]

Stupid question, but are you weighing each charge or using a powder measure.

[MWestern]

Stupid question, but are you weighing each charge or using a powder measure.

I am weighing each charge. I am now double checking on a second scale and the first scale is always on point with the second. Thought it could be scale malfunctions but doesn’t look that way.

Thanks all for your time and input.

[elmacgyver0]

Interesting problem, the only time I have had problems with squib loads was an ammo can full of .38spl wad cutter ammo I inherited from my wife's uncle. That is a story for another time.
I'm sure with the help on this forum you will get it figured out.
There is a lot of knowledgeable people here on reloading, I'm not one of them, I know a few things, but can't hold a candle to most here.
Good Luck!

[45_Colt]

Sounds like the rifle isn't giving/producing a good solid firing pin hit on the primer. May be getting a good indentation, but it may not be a good solid hit.

Check the free movement of the firing pin, hammer spring strength, hammer drag. Also check the firing pin protrusion from the bolt face.

45_Colt

[Wilderness]

In my experience a clean barrel CAST bullet may give 50 fps or so EXTRA velocity. First shot on a cold fouled barrel does the same thing, possibly for different reasons. Is it possible that a plated bullet gives LOWER first shot velocity? (When it isn't zero) Test with chronograph. A fellow shooter experienced stuck bullets in .30-30 with Berry plated bullets and squib loads. Not sure if it was first shot or mid group. No such problem with soft cast lubricated bullets. Most sources I've read warn against trying very low velocities with jacketed bullets. I avoid hard alloys even.

To test your powder for dodgy light load ignition, place about 5 gns on the ground/floor, load a primed case in the rifle, and flash the powder with muzzle a few inches from the pile. Rifle powders will be scattered without ignition. Something like Red Dot will ignite. Could be telling you something about behaviour in light loads.

Squib loads with suitable powder can also be used as fire starters in an emergency - pull the bullet with pliers or Leatherman, place the powder where required in the kindling, and flash with the primed case. I believe it was a common trick in BP days - put a sniff of black in the kindling and light with a flint.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Like 45 Colt, I would be looking at some problem in the firearm, old grease/dirt, some 'broken/worn' part that may move or not position properly due to going to/from the range, to/from storage, check headspace, generous headspace can cause cartridges with with rims on the low side of SAAMI standards to not get full firing pin impact. I just replaced a mainspring in a 1949 Marlin 32 Special, every so often I got a misfire, usually on the colder days. If your cartridges chamber with resistance and the headspace is generous, the cartridge may not chamber with the rim against the chamber rim, firing pin must push the case forward to fire, sometimes it does not fire.

[dverna]

My CAS load was 2.7 gr of Clays and 125-130 gr bullets. A very light, low pressure load. I never had a squib even in cold weather. You do not need full power loads to avoid squibs.

You have a gun problem not a load problem

Are you sure your powder is what you think it is? I nearly dropped a powder measure of powder in the wrong jug once. But that would not explain only squibs on the first shot. A real challenge to figure this out.

Maybe start with a full strip down and cleaning.

[Wilderness]

Don and others - we are all missing the obvious.

Having seen Berry bullets stuck in a .30-30 with subsonic loads that were fine with lead, I'll put my money on those plated bullets being the problem. Copper should not be part of the squib load equation in the first place - too much resistance for that pressure. Lubed soft alloy bullets should be a better proposition. No experience with PC but possibly OK. Save the plated bullets for higher pressure/velocity.

As an aside, my observation of regular higher-velocity-first-shot on lubed bullets may actually be a consequence of more resistance from a clean bore or a cold fouled bore, possibly generating a better burn. Perhaps in this particular combination "more resistance" is expressed as a stuck bullet.

Note especially the post from PAndy (#22), with chronograph tests showing slow first shot on cold barrel with "copper" bullets, but not with cast.

I see that TiteGroup is down the fast end of the chart, so I would say powder choice is unlikely to be implicated.

[redhawk0]

Another test....heat up the barrel for your first shot...I'm not talking torch here...just a heat gun....see if you still get a squib on the first shot. It should tell you if its actually a cold/warm barrel issue.

I'd also try switching bullets....something NOT plated.

redhawk

[BamaNapper]

I've been following this thread since the beginning. I keep my mouth shut because y'all are far more experienced than I am. I do have a question or two that I'll throw out there.

If the primer strike was the problem, is that implying that a primer detonates more energetically if you strike it harder? I've never heard such a claim. But if it is the case, and it results in an incomplete burn of the powder charge, I would expect there to be unburnt powder in the barrel. I shoot TG powder because it's not position sensitive and I can load low energy rounds. I've never noticed unburnt powder using it. I've messed up and loaded a round with no powder. The bullet traveled a total of about 2-3" before coming to a stop in the barrel. So if the bullet is making it halfway down a rifle barrel I assume the primer is going off and igniting the powder.

I like the thought that the load and bullet selection is right on the hairy edge of producing enough pressure. With the light load, the case is probably not expanding enough to seal the chamber. Wouldn't this provide a larger area for gas expansion and allow barrel pressure to bleed off through the action as the bullet is trying to accelerate? It seems that if barrel pressure is dropping rapidly, it wouldn't take much change in friction to cross the go/no-go point. Could the temp of the brass limit its ability to expand and seal?

Barrels are accurate with a certain bullet diameter, it's a given. But would pushing a handful of these bullets through a 1mil smaller sizing die be worth a try? Yes, it may lose accuracy, but if they fired reliably in a cold barrel it may help prove the notion that bullet friction and low pressure is the problem.

From one of those sniper shows a few years ago: Cold ammunition is somewhat less energetic than warm. I have a hard time believing a few degrees would make any significant difference, but it is a factor. The sniper related that he would wrap his rounds in a dark cloth and lay them in the sunlight to get a little extra oomph for a long shot. I figure if the temp was 45 degrees, by the time the shooter unloads, clears the squib from the barrel, reloads and fires again, both the rifle and the rounds are also back at 45 degrees.

[dverna]

Don and others - we are all missing the obvious.

Having seen Berry bullets stuck in a .30-30 with subsonic loads that were fine with lead, I'll put my money on those plated bullets being the problem. Copper should not be part of the squib load equation in the first place - too much resistance for that pressure. Lubed soft alloy bullets should be a better proposition. No experience with PC but possibly OK. Save the plated bullets for higher pressure/velocity.

As an aside, my observation of regular higher-velocity-first-shot on lubed bullets may actually be a consequence of more resistance from a clean bore or a cold fouled bore, possibly generating a better burn. Perhaps in this particular combination "more resistance" is expressed as a stuck bullet.

Note especially the post from PAndy (#22), with chronograph tests showing slow first shot on cold barrel with "copper" bullets, but not with cast.

I see that TiteGroup is down the fast end of the chart, so I would say powder choice is unlikely to be implicated.

Interesting observation!!

I use XTP type bullets in pistol caliber carbines but at near full loads. Never shot them at low velocity. My CAS bullets were made from hardball alloy (92-2-6). Not s "soft" alloy but more malleable than a jacketed bullet.

If your theory is correct, the solution is simple! Use the right tool for the job.

OP, if you want about 100 cast bullets at no charge to try at low velocity, send me a PM. I have 125-130 gr RNFP bullets but they should test the theory. I may have some 158 gr SWC I got for a project and will send some of them if I can find them.

[sledman]

The primer ignites but the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. I tried Missouri 158 coated but accuracy was terrible. 13” groups at 50 yards.

I tried 11 grains of imr 4227 and all bullets cleared the barrel but I could still feel recoil differences between some of the rounds. Accuracy showed it too, it was poor. Saturday I shot 2 5 shot groups of 1” at 50 yards. Went home and loaded up 50 rounds with that recipe. Next Saturday, I didn’t touch the rifle, that load now has 10” groups at 50 yards and inconsistent recoil with lots of unburned powder everywhere. The only difference was the first week was 45 and this week was 30 degrees.

I am going to bump it up to 12.5 and try again. For some reason I can’t get consistent ignition. After seeing the erratic groups I might circle back to the Missouri 158s.

I have new starline 357 brass sized and trimmed. I don’t use any lube on pistol brass. Crimp is done with a Lee FCD, medium crimp (contact plus 3/4 turn).

Going out on a limb here... You might try crimping with a different die than the Lee FCD, or no crimp at all if you have enough neck tension.

[rintinglen]

Titegroup is a double base powder, meaning it is a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. Nitroglycerin becomes less volatile when chilled. I don't know how cold your barrel is when you are getting the squibs. But I suspect if you keep your ammunition in your pocket so that it stays warm and quickly load and fire, you'll likely find the problem stops. A single base powder, such as VV n320, might also solve your problem.

[wilecoyote]

in case it could be a problem resulting from a low charge of some position-sensitive powder, a small fluff of dacron would be enough to keep it where it should stay, eliminating at least this variable_

[1006]

I think you just need more powder.

5.0 is a starting load.

You need a good taper crimp—squeeze it, it will still be accurate.

Also, if you are wet tumbling your brass, make extra certain the cases are dry. I have had them sitting on my bench for a week and found they were still retaining moisture that damaged my powder.

[smkummer]

This sounds like an undersized bullet/oversized barrel situation. Measure the diameter of your bullets. Lead bullets normally are .358 diameter. Slug your barrel. It should be .357.

I say this because when I started loading 38 special for SASS, I found a load of 2.8 bullseye and a 125 grain bullet. I had some cast round nose 125 grain bullets for 9mm sized at .356 and used them. They sounded weak but none ever stuck. Changing to a lee 125-RF cast bullet sized to .358 made all the difference. A good bang even in cold weather.
Talking about cold weather. Winchester actually publishes its low recoil 26 gram. 12 gauge shotgun loads. Many SASS shooters use this ammo if they can find it. We could not get win. powder in the past shortage so we substituted 700X with a 7/8 wad. I use about 13 grains. A buddy was down to 12 grains. It was fine in the warm weather but last week, during the 40 degree day, his loads sounded weak and he is going to up it to 13 grains. A weak load doesn’t have a good bang and being around lots of shooting, especially SASS, it’s easy to hear.

[Lance Boyle]

With that low of a powder charge I would be focussing on using .38 special cases instead. I see you tried one load with a .38 case.

Either switch powders or change cases or both.

things to tip the scales in your favor
.38 special case to help with powder fill
deeper bullet seating.....same reason
firmer crimp to help the powder maintain initial pressure for the burn
different fluffier powder for more fill
up the charge

Granted I have no .357 rifle length barrels (yet). Just a half a dozen .357 wheel guns. You have quite a long barrel! You may want to check out the Lyman manuals iirc they have seperate data for rifles. I am guessing your bullet is actually losing speed not picking any up beyond a 16” barrel. Your small powder charge has run out of expansion before the bullet exits.