Cold bore only squib problem

[MWestern]

Hello all, I am having a problem with squib loads and I can’t figure it out. Maybe one of you have an idea.

Rifle: New Winchester/miroku 1873 24” barrel 38/357

I bought the rifle to do the LG silhouette match at my club

I have been trying to develop a load for it but I get a squib 100% of the time on a cold bore. Following shots work fine.

Here is what I have loaded and all have a cold bore squib. First shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 5-10 min, first shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 10 min, fire, another squib, following 15 shots work fine.

Outside temp was 45 degrees
Bullet: 158gr plated from Everglades ammo
Powder: titegroup

All these loads had cold bore squibs:
38 brass, 3.8gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, mag primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, mag primer
357 brass, 5.0gr, std primer

I read about the action strength on the 1873 so I am trying to keep the pressures as low as possible, yet knock down the steel silhouettes.

I keep messing with this combo because the accuracy is outstanding when it works.

357 brass, 4.2gr titegroup, 158gr Missouri bullet lead, std primer. 100% but accuracy was horrible, 12-15” at 50 yards.

Factory blazer 125gr 38 spl was 100% and accuracy was just ok.

My next step is to try hp38 and maybe some #5 if I can find it locally.


Any one have any ideas on the cold bore only squibs?

Thanks
Mike

[shootinfox2]

Did you clean out the firing pin bore. Cold lube in there may cause the firing pin to stick.

Is it a squib ir no fire?

[MWestern]

Did you clean out the firing pin bore. Cold lube in there may cause the firing pin to stick.

Is it a squib ir no fire?

The bullets fires, but gets stuck 1/2 to 3/4 down the barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

since the bullets are plated and not lubed(?) it's possibly a function of powder position in the case because the first cartridge is loaded and fired differently from the next 4. How are you loading the rifle and then firing the first round vs the next 4?

[MWestern]

since the bullets are plated and not lubed(?) it's possibly a function of powder position in the case because the first cartridge is loaded and fired differently from the next 4. How are you loading the rifle and then firing the first round vs the next 4?

I was thinking the same thing so I tried single loading all 5 on to the lifter. Then all from the magazine, I even tried tapping the rounds rims down to make sure all the powder was up against the primer. It’s so strange that it’s only when the bore is cool. Guess I will try a different powder but it’s hurting my brain as it makes no sense to me. I have some 158 jsp I could try, maybe it’s the bullets (just bought 500, dammit).

The 4.0gr load even squibbed in my 6” sw 586. Made it right to the end of the barrel.

[243winxb]

The bullets making it part way down the barrel, is a sign of low pressure. The powder can not burn correctly, if the bullet moves out of the case mouth to soon.

Full pressure loads will be needed to get 158 gr jacketed bullets out the rifle muzzle, at 38 special velocities.

Everglades bullets are listed at .357" diameter, undersize??

More bullet hold may be needed? Measure the outside diameter of the brass, before & after bullet seating.
The OD must increase by a minimum of .002" or more for proper hold/neck tension. Crimp should be light on plated bullets.

Increase bullet hold with a small expander and/or a new Sizing die. https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision.../dp/B00UUC805U

Lee Precision Reloading Undersize Sizing 38/357 Die

[Rockindaddy]

With the light powder charges and a lot of space in a relatively empty case, ignition is poor. Try some IMR4227 or Reloader No 7! These propellants are bulkier. Tighten your crimp. That charge will light up with no squibs!

[farmbif]

those new production guns are much stronger than the original 1873's. there is no way they would have chambered it for 357 magnum if it won't stand up to the load. might try some other powders, be-86 is a good candidate, also might try bullseye, silhouette or no5

[MWestern]

Thanks for suggestions. I will up my crimp and try other powders. I did try 4227 with the Missouri bullets but had lots of yellow flakes left in the case after firing. I will give it another shot with more crimp and a mag primer.

The squib only happening on a cold bore was something I never encountered before, but sometimes strange things happen.

[farmbif]

4227 is a good powder, I always use a magnum primer with it. although it always leaves powder behind in the barrel it usually provides very good accuracy. works real well for good powerful loads in 44 mag, 45 colt and others. ive never tried downloading it. once again for middle of the road loads, ive found be-86 to really shine and silhouette is also a great powder that is overlooked by many reloaders, it can be safely downloaded or loaded to the max with excellent results and lots of great data for it using all kinds of bullets. I wouldn't get too hung up on what brand or type of bullet what is usually more important is bullet weight and seating depth when approaching maximum loads. back in 70's a lot of load data was based purely on bullet weight not bullet brand.

[Jedman]

That is a very strange problem. I can’t think how the temperature of the barrel could have anything to do with it as you’re not talking below zero temps here ?
All I can think of are the standard things to check when you get a failure to fire, headspace, firing pin - moving freely the tip protrudes far enough through the bolt face, hammer to pin contact, mainspring power - must be enough to fire the primers used.
Why the following shots would be 100 % doesn’t make any sense to me ? It may not be handy to try this idea where you shoot at the range but I can shoot at home and might try using my hot air gun to slightly warm the chamber area of the barrel first and then load a single round and see if it fires all the time ?
As with the checks of your rifles function you could go through the possible problems with your ammo but that seems much less likely.

Jedman

[Milky Duck]

use a hooter load for the first round would circumvent the issue but not solve it.....really strange issue to have...I wonder if the barrels state of dirtyness or left over lube could be contributing?? when cold its creating more resistance,seen as though everything else should in effect be equal????

[farmbif]

another way to test your gun on first shot is to just chamber a shell with only a primer in it and see if it goes bang.

[Dan Cash]

Dear Lord, it is Christmas so I will not expound.

[35 Rem]

another way to test your gun on first shot is to just chamber a shell with only a primer in it and see if it goes bang.

This is exactly what I would do as this would take the powder and other factors out of the equation. I'm thinking it must be crud built up around the firing pin that is cushioning the hammer blow all the time but more so until the 1st shot loosens it up.

[Jedman]

Merry Christmas, it’s after midnight here and all guns, ammo should be happy to make it to the next year as I am and shoot the way they should ! This problem just does not seem to be repeatable.
I just read the posts and this is a quandary that I have never heard or experienced before.
I hope you find what is the problem.
Jedman

[Ford SD]

Hello all, I am having a problem with squib loads and I can’t figure it out. Maybe one of you have an idea.

Rifle: New Winchester/miroku 1873 24” barrel 38/357

I bought the rifle to do the LG silhouette match at my club

I have been trying to develop a load for it but I get a squib 100% of the time on a cold bore. Following shots work fine.

Here is what I have loaded and all have a cold bore squib. First shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 5-10 min, first shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 10 min, fire, another squib, following 15 shots work fine.

Outside temp was 45 degrees
Bullet: 158gr plated from Everglades ammo
Powder: titegroup

All these loads had cold bore squibs:
38 brass, 3.8gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, mag primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, mag primer
357 brass, 5.0gr, std primer

I read about the action strength on the 1873 so I am trying to keep the pressures as low as possible, yet knock down the steel silhouettes.

I keep messing with this combo because the accuracy is outstanding when it works.

357 brass, 4.2gr titegroup, 158gr Missouri bullet lead, std primer. 100% but accuracy was horrible, 12-15” at 50 yards.

Factory blazer 125gr 38 spl was 100% and accuracy was just ok.

My next step is to try hp38 and maybe some #5 if I can find it locally.


Any one have any ideas on the cold bore only squibs?

Thanks
Mike

I used GRT with my data, changed barrel length and powder

GRT predicts bullet velocity in the 1000 fps range
Your muzzle pressure is less than 400 psi = why you are sticking a bullet
Fill ratio is around 27% = position sensitive

You need to use a different powder or more of it

In a hg 8 inch barrel muzzle pressure around 1700 psi

[popper]

Dang, that is lighter load than I use in 9mm sub-compact with WST.

[JSnover]

"I read about the action strength on the 1873 so I am trying to keep the pressures as low as possible, yet knock down the steel silhouettes."

You already got some good advice here so all I'm going to say is I made the same mistake when I first started; tried to keep the pressure as low as possible and got squibs. Your new rifle is plenty strong enough to handle standard 38/357 pressures, there's no need to hug the lower end of the load data.

[MWestern]

Thanks for all the insight. I have loaded up more rounds with different powders and charge weights and upped the crimp. Also cleaned the bore a little extra. The cold bore squib phenomenon is probably a perfect storm of my chamber, bore, powder, brass, crimp combo. I am trying some HP38, unique, IMR4227, and an increased charge weight of titegroup.

Remington 158gr 38 special LRN was 100%, so a heavy 38 works, just had mediocre accuracy, about 5” at 100yds vs the titegroup and plated 2.5” at 100yds.

The rifle never failed to ignite the primer, if the primer ignited the powder properly is another story.