light loads in military calibers , non rifle powders

[magnumuser]

I know the standard dichotomy of light loads for military rfles, unique, red dot, green dot, bulls eye, 2400.

What I would like to know is, wich of these powders are also going to get a a jacketed bullet into that safe pressure, safe velocity range.

I mean, some of these loads are promised to put 150 grain lead slugs in a 308/7.62x51/308 service rifle into the 15-1700 fps realm. How many of these powders can safely do that with a jacketed soft point?

Id like to be able to load hornady 150 grain interlock to a muzzle velocity that is harmonized with their minimum impact velocity, which if i recall is 1300 fps,, the hornady factory load has a muzzle velocity of 2800fps which means that best weight retention will happen around 500 yards of bullet travel. Im a 100 yard shooter. And as some of these pistol powders can drive a cast slug to 15-1700, what options exist for a jacketed option?

[Hick]

I don't load 308, but I do load 30-06 (M1 Garand), Enfield (303), 7.62 x 39, 7.65 Mauser military rifles using BR-5, HP-38, Win-231 and Titegroup. Lots of different loads in the range of 1300-1500 fps. 7.65 Mauser is closest in case size to 308. 9.5 grains of HP-38 gets me 1400 fps with a 150 grain bullet. The same loads that work for cast will work for similar weight jacketed-- just start low.

[Larry Gibson]

Of the powders you mention, 2400 will get you velocities into the range you want with safe level pressures. I'd start at 14 gr and go +/- for what you want. I'd also use fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled out (#28 bit). Be careful not to double charge.

[Mr Peabody]

I look at Ken Waters Pet Loads for information like that. Lots of reduced velocity loads for jacketed bullets. Speer manuals used to have some good information too

[ascast]

Good question. I have wonder about this myself. Any Unique loads are of particular interest.

[magnumuser]

Im just tired of having bullets turn to mush

[Kestrel4k]

Very good answers to your questions can be found w/ Quickload.

[...] Id like to be able to load hornady 150 grain interlock to a muzzle velocity that is harmonized with their minimum impact velocity, which if i recall is 1300 fps,, the hornady factory load has a muzzle velocity of 2800fps which means that best weight retention will happen around 500 yards of bullet travel. Im a 100 yard shooter. And as some of these pistol powders can drive a cast slug to 15-1700, what options exist for a jacketed option?

I just checked and it looks like Hornady cites 1800 fps minimum velocity for expansion re: their Interlock, not the 1300 that you were thinking ?

[Ford SD]

check out some of the bullets made for the 30-30 or the 300 AAC Blackout
they will work better at the lower velocities

[magnumuser]

some nice 30-30 but its hard to keep from laughing when 200 grain spire points appear in the results for 30-30 options via google searches.

Id like to be able to get these downloaded so that the bullets arent going 1,000 fps faster that needed at 100 yards. If they hit a rib bone, they pretty much become nothing more than a piece of shiny copper floating in mushy lungs.

[magnumuser]

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...s_201008/99873

Thts the page that got me set on the idea of "the load" with a jacketed bulelt. Here is a rough cut of the data they list

Bullet Powder (Type/ Grs.) Velocity (fps) Muzzle Energy (ft-lbs) Recoil (ft-lbs)
Hornady 150-gr. JSP AA 5744 / 24.0 1835 1122 6.4
Hornady 150-gr. JSP IMR-4227 / 24.0 1997 1329 7.2
Hornady 150-gr. JSP SR 4759 / 22.0 1964 1285 6.7
Hornady 150-gr. JSP 2400 / 20.0 1784 1060 5.5
Hornady 150-gr. JSP IMR-4895 / 35.0 2020 1359 9.2
Notes: These handloads
were fired in a Ruger MKII M77 Frontier w/16-inch barrel. Weight of the rifle and scope is 7.5 pounds.

[Thumbcocker]

Somewhere i have a reprint of the manual for the 1917 rifle. The manual lists the ammo for the rifle. One cartridge listed is the "guard" cartridge loaded with 150 grain jacketed bullets that were not good enough for regular ammo. The powder was bullseye and the charge was listed. Iirc the velocity was 1200 fps.

[charlie b]

Look here for more reduced loads. For the .308 I used .30-30 data. Jacketed or cast.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

But, have to check stability at lower velocities with jacketed bullets. Ones made for the .30-30 might do ok, being blunt nose and shorter than the ELD types.

[schutzen-jager]

loads i have used in past - still use the 7.62 NATO [ ck. oal if using in .308 ] + 30/06 -
-

5.56 NATO 13.5gr. 2400 w/55gr fmj-
.30 m carbine 13.5gr 2400w/110gr. fmj -- 6.0 gr. unique w115gr cast
7.62x51 NATO 21.6gr 2400 w/160grcast gc---12.5gr red dot w/170gr cast gc
30/06 23.6gr 2400 w/ 16gr cast gc -
8X57mm mauser 15gr unique w180gr cast - 12.0 green dot w170gr cast -

[M1fuzz]

I am a fan of IMR4227. Shoots good in all my military rifle calibers w/ cast.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I've used 4227, 5744 and Reloder 7 for 'practice' loads using military FMJ, 'pulled', or 'seconds' jacketed because cost is low, convenience is high and most 30 cal 144-150's are as accurate as 'most' cast boolits, less than 2 MOA at 100 yards, usually better out of my 308's and 300 Savage's. Right now I am running 18 grs 5744 under 144-150 grains in my 308's,23 grs Reloder 7 and 17 grs IMR4227 have worked about the same, light recoil, accurate but I have not shot any critters with them.

[racepres]

Red Dot

[P Flados]

Factory 30-30 ammo in 150s is closer to 2400.

If the previously mentioned 1800 fps is needed, Quick Target says you need 2250 fps at the muzzle to stay above 1800 fps at 100 yards using the 150, Hornady RN 3035.

If the min speed required is 1700 fps, or if max range is 75 yards, a muzzle velocity of 2105 fps would be good enough.

Quickload estimates for a 22" gun using my "pistol/shotgun powders" table.

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 150, Hornady RN 3035
Useable Case Capaci: 49.988 grain H2O = 3.246 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.600 inch = 66.04 mm  (0.319" seating depth)
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant UNIQUE                      69.4     20.6     1.34    2250   100.0    59851    4068   1.126  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant HERCO                       74.4     21.5     1.39    2250   100.0    57665    4112   1.143  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot True Blue                   50.1     23.4     1.52    2250   100.0    57595    4028   1.132  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot                    50.4     23.4     1.51    2250   100.0    57318    4036   1.134  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HS-6                        51.7     23.5     1.53    2250   100.0    55901    4057   1.142  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.5                       45.5     21.6     1.40    2250   100.0    51874    4198   1.168
Shooters World Auto Pistol          45.5     21.6     1.40    2250   100.0    51849    4199   1.168
Vihtavuori N105 *C                  63.5     22.9     1.48    2250   100.0    49067    4163   1.201
Alliant POWER PISTOL                54.4     19.9     1.29    2250   100.0    46901    4391   1.197
Accurate No.7                       46.9     23.3     1.51    2250   100.0    43456    4407   1.238
Shooters World Major Pistol         46.9     23.3     1.51    2250   100.0    43456    4407   1.238
Alliant BLUE DOT                    61.4     23.0     1.49    2250   100.0    42243    4506   1.248
Accurate TCM                        51.4     24.4     1.58    2250   100.0    41307    4507   1.253
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         49.9     24.7     1.60    2250   100.0    40301    4569   1.266
Accurate No.9                       50.4     24.7     1.60    2250   100.0    40301    4569   1.266
Ramshot Enforcer                    53.7     25.3     1.64    2250   100.0    38222    4720   1.304
Alliant 2400                        53.9     23.6     1.53    2250   100.0    37535    4757   1.306
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  64.9     25.4     1.64    2250   100.0    37371    4762   1.315
Accurate 4100                       55.5     26.4     1.71    2250   100.0    36990    4818   1.314
IMR 4227                            65.4     27.6     1.79    2250   100.0    33086    5424   1.342
Accurate 5744                       59.4     26.2     1.70    2250    99.4    32009    5775   1.368
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        60.8     26.2     1.70    2250    99.4    32009    5775   1.368

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RED DOT                     78.7     18.1     1.17    2105   100.0    58145    3534   1.163  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant GREEN DOT                   73.1     18.8     1.22    2105   100.0    56978    3525   1.182  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HP38                        51.6     19.9     1.29    2105   100.0    56854    3483   1.170  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N330                     63.9     19.2     1.24    2105   100.0    56532    3460   1.176  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 231                      57.2     20.0     1.29    2105   100.0    56318    3494   1.173  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Zip                         51.4     20.0     1.29    2105   100.0    56318    3494   1.173  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Universal                   63.4     18.8     1.22    2105   100.0    54158    3557   1.197  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.2                       59.8     18.3     1.18    2105   100.0    52066    3500   1.210
Shooters World Ultimate Pistol      40.0     18.2     1.18    2105   100.0    50508    3617   1.221
Ramshot Silhouette                  50.3     20.2     1.31    2105   100.0    49321    3612   1.215
Alliant UNIQUE                      61.3     18.2     1.18    2105   100.0    49162    3643   1.229
Winchester WAP                      50.3     20.2     1.31    2105   100.0    49112    3615   1.216
Alliant BULLSEYE                    54.9     16.8     1.09    2105   100.0    48400    3705   1.222
Alliant HERCO                       65.7     19.0     1.23    2105   100.0    47163    3691   1.252
Winchester 540                      43.7     20.8     1.34    2105   100.0    46859    3628   1.236
Ramshot True Blue                   44.3     20.8     1.35    2105   100.0    46772    3629   1.237
Hodgdon Longshot                    44.6     20.7     1.34    2105   100.0    46557    3636   1.238
Hodgdon HS-6                        45.8     20.9     1.35    2105   100.0    45325    3660   1.248
Accurate No.5                       40.3     19.2     1.24    2105   100.0    42147    3784   1.280
Shooters World Auto Pistol          40.3     19.2     1.24    2105   100.0    42126    3784   1.280
Vihtavuori N105 *C                  56.6     20.4     1.32    2105   100.0    39435    3786   1.321
Alliant POWER PISTOL                48.3     17.7     1.14    2105   100.0    38277    3956   1.310
Accurate No.7                       41.8     20.8     1.35    2105   100.0    35156    4021   1.357
Shooters World Major Pistol         41.8     20.8     1.35    2105   100.0    35156    4021   1.357
Alliant BLUE DOT                    54.9     20.6     1.33    2105   100.0    34253    4111   1.367
Accurate TCM                        46.0     21.9     1.42    2105   100.0    33457    4133   1.369
Accurate No.9                       45.3     22.1     1.43    2105   100.0    32677    4198   1.381
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         44.8     22.1     1.43    2105   100.0    32677    4198   1.381
Ramshot Enforcer                    48.3     22.8     1.47    2105   100.0    31056    4358   1.423
Alliant 2400                        48.5     21.2     1.38    2105   100.0    30622    4389   1.414
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  58.5     22.9     1.48    2105   100.0    30317    4407   1.432
Accurate 4100                       50.2     23.9     1.55    2105   100.0    30154    4479   1.430
IMR 4227                            59.8     25.2     1.64    2105    99.4    27507    5066   1.449
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        55.9     24.1     1.56    2105    98.1    26765    5348   1.483
Accurate 5744                       54.6     24.1     1.56    2105    98.1    26765    5348   1.483

[FullTang]

Beat me to it, magnumuser! Those loads have worked really well for me in .308, 7.65 Argentine and 7.5 Swiss. I especially like the 4227 load. Very accurate and still plenty powerful. I've also used the 5744 load as the basis for Buffalo Rifle (Lovex/Shooter's World) loads, which were also really consistent and accurate. They're all de-powered, but they're not powder-puff loads by any means. They sound like real rifle rounds and have enough velocity that the drop at 100 yards isn't much more than standard velocity loads. Enough recoil that you fell like you're shooting a gun! Some of the really low-power rounds with pistol powders sound like a PCC, and even attract unwanted attention (at our club, rangemasters are always worried about people shooting pistols on the rifle ranges.)

[freakonaleash]

I use 5744 for most of my smokeless cast bullet loads. Any other pistol type powder in large cases makes me too nervous. 4198 is good too.

[Lead Puller]

Of the powders you mention, 2400 will get you velocities into the range you want with safe level pressures. I'd start at 14 gr and go +/- for what you want. I'd also use fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled out (#28 bit). Be careful not to double charge.

This is good advice. I visually inspect the inside of the brass, after dropping the charge, before seating the bullet.