Would Ramshot Enforcer Cause a SEE Event in 9mm?

[uscra112]

in other realms see refers to "significant emotional event" which would be an appropriate term in the described situation .

lol!

[Larry Gibson]

There's always one who denies the science.....

Actual S.E.E.s are not a myth. They do happen and can be replicated in or out of a lab.

However, you are correct in that many, if not most, reported S.E.E. occurrences are actually caused by loader/shooter error such as over charged loads. You are also correct in that smokeless powders do not "detonate" in cartridges.

What you posted ["What actually happens requires a large case, a slow powder, and a long, strong jacketed or solid bullet. Magnum primers preferred. The primer flash generates enough pressure to drive the bullet into the throat, where it stops before the slow, hard-to-ignite powder starts its' burn. The bullet in the throat is now a bore obstruction, and pressure goes through the roof. This has been replicated in a European lab. I'm too tired to go looking tonight. I think it's in Handloader, and Larry Gibson had something to do with it."] is essentially correct though not a very complete or accurate description of an S.E.E. occurrence.

Since you essentially described an actual S.E.E. occurrence you are admitting it does exist. In fact, S.E.E.s have occurred and will probably continue to occur.

I'll tell you what is a myth, the fact that many think ammunition testing occurs in a "lab". It does not. The testing, as in firing the test loads, occurs on a range be it indoor or outdoor. The loading will, most often take place in room set up with reloading equipment very similar to what most of us have. The testing then will take place on a range. Perhaps a matter of semantics but the work "lab" conjurs up a completely different concept to most.

[uscra112]

The urban myth has long held that the powder detonates due to ?????, which we both know it cannot.

So now we redefine SEE to be a blowup due to the stuck bullet scenario? OooohKay........

I downloaded the text of the Handloader article eight years ago, and it appears that you either wrote it or were referring somebody to it. Of course my summary is rudimentary - the article is pages long.

[Larry Gibson]

No, I did not write the handloader article. I have been present during two separate and complete S.E.E. occurrences. I also took part in the loading of the cartridges so am knowledgeable about all the facts. In both occurrences the symptoms leading up to the actual S.E.E. were just as described in the article. Subsequently, since I began measuring pressures with attendant time/pressure curves I have, on several occasions, seen the pressure progressively rise just as stated in the article. I also have purposely replicated those progressively increasing pressures with the same load just as the article described. I stopped just short, in each instance, of the actual S.E.E. occurrence.

If you'd care to donate a rifle, preferably a smaller bore with a larger case capacity, I will gladly replicate an S.E.E. in it. Also, if you'd care to journey out this way I'd be happy to have you partake in the cartridge loading and the actual firing. You might find it interesting and educational.

[rockrat]

Corrected my post

There is always one that will deny the science

[TurnipEaterDown]

I remember reading, and contributing to, another thread on here where I believe a poster stated that HP White laboratories reproduced high pressure excursions in a 6.5x55 Swede. I further remember the condition was 160 gr bullets, and a lightened charge of "slow" powder.

I have come very close I believe on two occasions to having this happen to me, where (as I described before) the charges were too light: bullet in one instance failed to exit the case (6mm x 280 improved) and in the other a bullet lodged in forcing cone (500 Linebaugh Long) with primer ignition and partially burnt/scorched powder, accompanied by an amalgomated mass of powder in each case.

So, by whatever name, bad things can happen with excessively light loads of powders which are "slow" (relative to cartridge, I believe). I do think they are pretty rare unless reproducing purposefully a load known to have issues.
Does pay to head the general warnings, and know why they are given.

[Sandspider500]

Description: 356 125 2r 1.155 8.6gr TCM
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 128.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 986 276.36 126.21
9 1006 287.69 128.77
8 1013 291.71 129.66
7 1016 293.44 130.05
6 985 275.80 126.08
5 1007 288.26 128.90
4 1018 294.59 130.30
3 1009 289.41 129.15
2 996 282.00 127.49
1 1028 300.41 131.58
Average: 1006.40
StdDev: 13.85
Min: 985
Max: 1028
Spread: 43
True MV: 1007.54
Shots/sec: 0.17

[Gtrubicon]

What does SEE stand for?

[G W Wade]

Check Post #14

[uscra112]

Secondary Explosion Effect. A hypothesis that said that reduced loads could "detonate" due to (in one telling of it) "shock wave reverberations". There were other versions, equally speculative. Was finally debunked by experiments using strain gages instead of the old copper crushers. But now we are apparently re-assigning the moniker to these "stuck bullet" scenarios.

[Larry Gibson]

There were several different theories regarding the cause of S.E.E. Several were concerned with detonation of the powder. It was very difficult to determine with any surety what was the actual cause using the C.U.P. ore even piezo transducers methods of measuring the pressures due to the nature of the test fixtures used. However, with the advent of the use of strain gauges to measure the time/pressure curve [traces] along with the maximum pressure in actual firearms in general use it was possible to actually observe and measure the S.E.E. phenomenon. Doing so then enables us to then determine the cause(s) [as in the necessary elements] for the S.E.E. to potentially occur.

Not "reassigning" any moniker. Just stating the discovered true nature/cause of S.E.E. Whatever was the cause S.E.E. it was, indeed, occurring and is real, not a myth as you stated. The "hypothesis" was what is the cause of S.E.E. Once the cause was discovered and replicated the "hypotheses" of detonation was disproven and the theory of S.E.E. then became fact.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I think that there is some issue here going on with tying of a name to an observation / effect.

Whether the naming choice (S.E.E.) of the phenomena is based on a hypothesis which may be proven to be incorrect, and a bad practice from a technical writing standpoint, it is not a good idea to load reduced charges of slow powders in a variety of cartridges. Whether Detonation or simple extreme pressure peak from an obstructed bore and completed powder combustion, the point is somewhat irrelevant if the goal is to have a good time shooting and not endanger yourself, bystanders, or the firearm.

If significantly lighter loads are desired than what is published, a reduced charge of faster & easier to ignite powder is usually suggested, and if no data exists, then it may well be a bad idea to experiment.

It may also be a good idea at times, when running Published light loads of slower powders, to use a "hotter" primer. I have cured flyers this way when reducing charges.

If substantially reduced performance is the goal in some instance, and a person doesn't have significant knowledge and a acceptance of risk, a different cartridge application may well be suggested...

[uscra112]

Keeping the name keeps the false hypotheses alive on the Internet.

[Recycled bullet]

What is the most repeatable combination to cause s e e

[JimB..]

What is the most repeatable combination to cause s e e

Really just need to stick a bullet before the main charge fires, so would guess large case, modest charge of very slow powder, low neck tension, hard bullet, maybe a magnum primer. Undersized throat would help, so I guess firing a 300blk in a 5.56 chamber would be an SEE as we’re now defining it.

But I 100% agree with @uscra112, this isn’t what folks were ever thinking when they discussed an SEE, it was invariably some magic that produced more energy from a light charge than is produced by a normal charge. Not to pick on anyone, but I’m amused that we’ve clarified what “tested in a lab” means but insist on retaining the term SEE.

[uscra112]

What is the most repeatable combination to cause s e e

I downloaded and save the text of the Handloader article, (no illustrations). P/M me an email addy and I'll send it to you.

I can't seem to retrieve it from the Innertubes.

[uscra112]

I'm wondering what has become of those massive "Universal Receivers" the powder and ammo companies used to display in their ads.

[Recycled bullet]

Let me give an example perhaps clarify my question in a specific way. In my case I really like loading 308 Winchester with IMR 3031. I looked at some loading data for a 300 Savage and 3040 krag and I just made up a powder charge of 25 grains and shot it with the 170 flat nose Lee bullet and it was pretty accurate. Continuing my testing I went into the mid thirties grains level with the RCBS silhouette bullets and that's what I found accuracy significantly increased and they feed better so I'm going to continue to use the RCBS bullet because it's better. Now if I wanted to make my gun pop would I be able to do that by charging 20 grains of IMR 3031 with that same bullet and trying to shoot it like this? I am personally not interested in pounding out stuck bullets I think that really sucks and it's dangerous because if you're not paying attention then you'll be shooting into a Bore obstruction. Interestingly 4 grains of Trail Boss gave me consistent bullets exiting the bore.

[uscra112]

If you are shooting a cast bullet, it can't happen. Cast bullets don't exhibit the static friction of jacketed. As I posted earlier, Schuetzen competitors have been forcing their cast bullets deep into the throat with a special tool before inserting a charged case since the 1880s, and doing it with light charges of smokeless since about 1910. The only notable result is greater accuracy.

Search "breech seating" on the Innertubes.

[Recycled bullet]

Yeah that's a good point, what type of gunpowders do shutzen breech seaters use