Would Ramshot Enforcer Cause a SEE Event in 9mm?

[justindad]

Asking for a friend…

[uscra112]

No, because there is no such thing as SEE.

Of course you can overload any fast handgun powder and blow your gun up, and blame SEE to evade responsibility. Many have.

[Recycled bullet]

Why are you loading ramshot enforcer into 9 mm Luger? Ramshot Enforcer is inappropriately slow for 9 mm it's slower than 2400. There are like 50 other types of gunpowder that are better for 9 mm . I hope that you or nobody else was injured.

[justindad]

IMR says Enforcer burns faster than N105, but VV has load data for three bullets with N105 in the 9mm.
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My thinking is that the worst that could happen is a squib. That’s only dangerous when you don’t know to think about it.

[Recycled bullet]

How much powder and what bullet are you going to use? If you're going to watch for holes on target I'm actually interested see if this works.

I do not like ramshot enforcer because I was loading it using the starting powder charge for hornady xtp or equivalent from the paper pamphlet loading manual with 125 grain high-tech coated truncated cone cast bullet in 357 Magnum and I got multiple squibs. The powder became a gross Chucky chunk was kind of grayish yellow it looked like a partial combustion it sounded like pfffft. The Squibs were in a 2 and 1/4 in J frame Magnum snub the bullets were a pain in the ass to pound out.

[uscra112]

Quickload says a 100% density 9mm load (8.0 gr. behind a 124 grain bullet) generates 17,000 psi. Not exactly a 9mm load. Only 51% of the powder burns in a 5 inch barrel. Again looking at QL database, N105 is a LOT faster than Enforcer. According to some source or other, Enforcer is the same powder as AA4100, and in fact when I was still able to shoot I was using it as such in some of my .25 caliber cast bullet rifle loads, drawing on the QL model to establish charge weights. Actual results were close to what the model calculated. You get a much more complete burn in a 26 inch barrel.

[uscra112]

Found another note - I tried Enforcer in .357 Maximum - 12 inch barrel Contender, 158 grain XTP - pressure 30kpsi - worked but Lil-Gun worked better.

NB: Updated QL database has adjusted values for 4100 - it now shows it slightly slower than Enforcer. It might be just that they hadn't updated Enforcer yet. My update is a couple of years old.

[justindad]

Thanks for the QL data. A 51% burn just might cause a jam. I’ve had an unburnt kernel of AA#9 find its way between a barrel and slide and cause a jam. If I can’t stop myself, I’ll report back what happens with the 140 grain Saeco 383 - that boolit leaves a relatively large amount of case volume.
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I’m really just curious about how versatile Enforcer is. I’ve tinkered quite a bit with this powder in .357Sig, and the results I have suggest it can be downloaded quite a bit. There’s load data from Ramshot for this powder in .40S&W and .45ACP, which I plan to test. I did not get fantastic results with this powder and a 158 grain .357 Mag load, but I’ve got some 180 grain era loaded for the next time I can make it to the range.

[Gtrubicon]

Can someone explain what a SEE event is? Thanks.

[uscra112]

SEE is an urban myth. The idea being that a reduced load of slow powder can "detonate" causing the rifle to blow up.

What actually happens requires a large case, a slow powder, and a long, strong jacketed or solid bullet. Magnum primers preferred. The primer flash generates enough pressure to drive the bullet into the throat, where it stops before the slow, hard-to-ignite powder starts its' burn. The bullet in the throat is now a bore obstruction, and pressure goes through the roof. This has been replicated in a European lab. I'm too tired to go looking tonight. I think it's in Handloader, and Larry Gibson had something to do with it.

Smokeless powder cannot detonate at any loading density we can create. The chemistry is all wrong.

It's not possible to generate extreme pressures with reduced loads behind cast bullets. They are too soft to be a bore obstruction. For 130 years Schuetzen shooters have deliberately seated their bullets deep into the throat, and followed with a charged case. There is no result other than extreme accuracy.

SEE has been blamed for countless revolver blowups, but the conditions I described above cannot be created in a pistol cartridge. Blaming SEE is just an excuse, when the real culprit is always an excessive charge. .38 Specials are especially prone since the powder space was designed for black powder, and easily accepts a double charge of many common powders. Note that the 9mm is essentially the same cartridge with powder space appropriate for smokeless.

[G W Wade]

Thanks #12 was curious myself Used to be a lot of talk about it only was just referred to as detonation. 38 Special with 148 wc or 2.7 Bulleye dismantling some revolvers. GW

[Kestrel4k]

Another thank you to uscra and his detailed post above; this topic can be like playing whack-a-mole.

[uscra112]

this topic can be like playing whack-a-mole.

You certainly got THAT right!

[JimB..]

SEE = Secondary Explosive Event (or Effect)
As stated above, I also think it’s a myth in our application.

[steve urquell]

If you would like to learn more about loading fast pistol powders in rifle cartridges check out the link below and click on the links in it. Excellent resource.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[rockrat]

SEE is NOT a myth. I say this because it happened to me with a nearly new S&W 29 Silhouette revolver. Still have the thing, top strap a little past 90 degrees and top half of cylinder gone. Each charge weighed to a tenth of an grain and each visually inspected in its respective once fired cases. Not an overload, rather an underload. Kind of like manuals say not to underload ww296. No stuck bullet in the bore as I saw the impact of previous shots.
SEE, you bet and won't convince me otherwise.

[Plate plinker]

Nice explanation from uscra112. That certainly makes sense as to why people think one thing regarding detonation when there is a logical explanation that MAY and I believe most likely be the truth.

[1eyedjack]

In other realms SEE refers to "significant emotional event" which would be an appropriate term in the described situation .

[Recycled bullet]

SEE is NOT a myth. I say this because it happened to me with a nearly new S&W 29 Silhouette revolver. Still have the thing, top strap a little past 90 degrees and top half of cylinder gone. Each charge weighed to a tenth of an ounce and each visually inspected in its respective once fired cases. Not an overload, rather an underload. Kind of like manuals say not to underload ww296. No stuck bullet in the bore as I saw the impact of previous shots.
SEE, you bet and won't convince me otherwise.

Sir please check for a typographical error 1/10 oz. is more than 40 grains.

[uscra112]

SEE is NOT a myth. I say this because it happened to me with a nearly new S&W 29 Silhouette revolver. Still have the thing, top strap a little past 90 degrees and top half of cylinder gone. Each charge weighed to a tenth of an ounce and each visually inspected in its respective once fired cases. Not an overload, rather an underload. Kind of like manuals say not to underload ww296. No stuck bullet in the bore as I saw the impact of previous shots.
SEE, you bet and won't convince me otherwise.

There's always one who denies the science.....