Carnuba Red in 4500 sizer

[slk]

Has anyone had problems with the carnuba red in a 4500 sizer with heater? It seams to really make a mess and ooze’s out all over. I have been having to unplug the heater and letting it cool some to be able to use it. Anyone have any tricks to make it work better with a 4500 sizer?

thanks
Steve

[cpaspr]

Not sure if it's Carnuba Red or not, but one of the 450s I bought last year had a red lube in it. And it leaked underneath, a lot, around the (approximately 1/2" diameter) center pin/plug/whatever under the reservoir. I came across a thread, possibly here, but I couldn't find it just now, where someone bought a used 450 at a garage sale, where the seller was getting out of casting. He noticed a washer taped to the bottom of it, and asked the seller about it.

The seller said that by putting that washer there, when he bolted it down it put enough pressure on that part of the 450 that it didn't leak.

Well, I found a couple of washers of matching thickness, one with enough metal to completely cover the outside edges of the leaking part, and the other to hold up the back end of the 450 so it would bolt down flat. It looks kinda funny, sitting a sixteenth of an inch or so above the heater, but danged if it didn't stop leaking right now. And it still transfers plenty of heat to the lube.

I bought one with an integral heater and two with the separate heating plates. The integral heater one doesn't seem to leak at the base, and I haven't fired up the second non-integral-heater one yet. It had some blue lube in it, and I could see some around the base, so I think I'll probably need to repeat the washer treatment with that one as well.

[poppy42]

Don’t know about carnuba red but you don’t want to use Ben’s Red with a heater! Heaters are just for hard lube in a colder environment. If your sizer is inside in a heated area you don’t need a heater. Sometimes just a lite bulb is enough, or a hair blow dryer. Even if it’s cold leaving a heater on to long can lead to a real mess! Personally I’ve never needed one of any kind, but I live in Virginia and all my reloading is done inside.

[Winger Ed.]

Sounds like It's running too warm, and/or you're putting too much pressure on the handle that injects the lube.

I use a similar one from RCBS and that's the same problem I had.
I ran it cooler, and when turning the injection handle- turn it to inject, then back it off about 1/4 turn.
It's sort of a balancing act.
You'll get a feel for the right amount of pressure to put on it each time.

When ya take a break, back off the injection handle a few turns too.
That will relieve the residual pressure in the reservoir.

[imashooter2]

I use an old flat iron on a metal plate as my lube heater. It is easy to overheat Carnauba Red and get a mess. I have to keep the iron pretty cool to find the sweet spot. Lars lists the working temperature at 100° and melt temperature as only 165°. I would imagine the one size fits all cartridge type commercial heaters would easily reach melt temperature.

[slk]

It is mainly oozing out when the bullet goes to size it, and it gets all underneath the bullet also. And yes I have been playing the balancing act with the heater. The lube seams to be good stuff but it is not as easy to work with as the orange magic. That being said if ya can find the right temp it works great. I have just been unpluging the heater and letting it cool. You do have to get the feel for the injection handle much more with the red stuff.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I've loaded hundreds of rifle bullets with Carnuba Red. Like it. As said previously, balancing the pressure and temperature is the trick. About 25 years ago I did buy a rig off Cast Bullets that replaces the screw with air. Much more consistent results. My heater does have a thermostat, which I'm sure helps a lot.

[45DUDE]

It is mainly oozing out when the bullet goes to size it, and it gets all underneath the bullet also. And yes I have been playing the balancing act with the heater. The lube seams to be good stuff but it is not as easy to work with as the orange magic. That being said if ya can find the right temp it works great. I have just been unpluging the heater and letting it cool. You do have to get the feel for the injection handle much more with the red stuff.

The piston is .001 smaller than the die. some pistons are tapered and smaller at the bottom. The piston cup goes up. There is a flat 0ring under the bottom washer of the sizer and the sizer has to be bolted on a flat surface to not leak. Sometimes the die is incorrect. 450 and 4500 dies have an 0ring at the top. 45 sizers have no 0ring but have a groove for the set screw. They will interchange but a 45 die will leak in a 450. I mix my lube for my Star sizer but use White Label orange without heat for 38 and blue with 44's and 45's with 100 degree heat for blue. I have 4 each of .358 and .452 sizers and the pistons measure a little different on each. They work fine with .001 clearance but I wish they were 1/2 that. I have had to grind a little from the bottom of the piston so it would seat deeper in the sizer on some and bevel the top of some dies if the boolit drops a little large. I like the top of the piston to sit at the bottom of the bevel. <easier to use>The more boolit bevel the more it leaks but I prefer a flat base anyway. If you haven't got a heater a small solder iron will work. You can make a bracket and put the tip where you think it needs to be. I have a small Christmas tree light taped to a couple. I have a solder iron with an adjustable rheostat on another. <Someone's garage sale junk>A small amount of heat make the sizer smoother even if not needed. I use a heat gun for a fast start or if using the next day leave the heat source on overnight.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It is mainly oozing out when the bullet goes to size it, and it gets all underneath the bullet also. And yes I have been playing the balancing act with the heater. The lube seams to be good stuff but it is not as easy to work with as the orange magic. That being said if ya can find the right temp it works great. I have just been unpluging the heater and letting it cool. You do have to get the feel for the injection handle much more with the red stuff.

If you handy with electrical stuff, here is a $13 temp controller that will easily handle that Lyman 20 watt heater.

https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-C...5&sr=8-15&th=1

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I use an old flat iron on a metal plate as my lube heater. It is easy to overheat Carnauba Red and get a mess. I have to keep the iron pretty cool to find the sweet spot. Lars lists the working temperature at 100° and melt temperature as only 165°. I would imagine the one size fits all cartridge type commercial heaters would easily reach melt temperature.

I am a fan of Carnuba Red, I have it in one of my Star lubsizers. Like imashooter2, I use a over size Steel plate to mount the sizer on the bench and put a old travel Iron with dial temp control on the plate. You want about 100º F on the sizer.

[farmbif]

there is usually some leakage, especially if stroke depth is way off, I just scrape the ooze out and put it to the side and use a dab here and there if I need to stick on any gas checks. I have been using carnauba red exclusively for all my lube sizing since signing onto this site and learning about LSStuff

[Dave W.]

I made a controller using a dimmer switch and a wall outlet mounted in a handy box. Works pretty well.

[poppy42]

The piston is .001 smaller than the die. some pistons are tapered and smaller at the bottom. The piston cup goes up. There is a flat 0ring under the bottom washer of the sizer and the sizer has to be bolted on a flat surface to not leak. Sometimes the die is incorrect. 450 and 4500 dies have an 0ring at the top. 45 sizers have no 0ring but have a groove for the set screw. They will interchange but a 45 die will leak in a 450. I mix my lube for my Star sizer but use White Label orange without heat for 38 and blue with 44's and 45's with 100 degree heat for blue. I have 4 each of .358 and .452 sizers and the pistons measure a little different on each. They work fine with .001 clearance but I wish they were 1/2 that. I have had to grind a little from the bottom of the piston so it would seat deeper in the sizer on some and bevel the top of some dies if the boolit drops a little large. I like the top of the piston to sit at the bottom of the bevel. <easier to use>The more boolit bevel the more it leaks but I prefer a flat base anyway. If you haven't got a heater a small solder iron will work. You can make a bracket and put the tip where you think it needs to be. I have a small Christmas tree light taped to a couple. I have a solder iron with an adjustable rheostat on another. <Someone's garage sale junk>A small amount of heat make the sizer smoother even if not needed. I use a heat gun for a fast start or if using the next day leave the heat source on overnight.

Half my dies have no 0ring and none leak! And as o said I’ve never used a heat source! As others have said most of the harder lubes will liquify at 150 160 degrees! 100 is max and 80 to 90 is more than enough. If your in a cold environment. Here in Virginia I’ve run mine when it’s in the 30’s outside and my living room is 70ish with no problems. The one time I use a heat source I wound up with a puddle of lube on the floor! (Good thing the wife wasn’t home Lol). But to each his own

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

I made a controller using a dimmer switch and a wall outlet mounted in a handy box. Works pretty well.

Yes, this.
I have two of the Lyman/Ideal 45 model with heaters and a light dimmer. Like others have said it is a balancing act. Too much heat and the thin lube leaks. Too little heat and the extra pressure needed causes leaks. Warm enough to flow without leaking is the "sweet spot".

[Rapier]

When I was mostly using GCs and lube, I found it much easier to just use an old hair dryer, laying next to the sizer, running on low to medium heat, just to keep the sizer's iron body warm to the touch, top to bottom of the colum. The heater plates warm from the bottom up and the bottom is where the most pressure is exerted on the warmed lube, by cold lube, so by the time the cold lube moves in the tube, the bottom lube is a liquid. The O ring seals are intended to hold against a semi solid lube, not a liquid. You can achieve the same effect by turning the plate heat down and running it longer before you start sizing, to warm the entire lube column. Just a 100% lube groove fill is all the lube you want per bullet.

This constant fiddling with the lubes and heat against the ambient temperature changes is one reason I just went to powder coating. And my mulpitile sizers (Lyman, RCBS) pretty much sit unused for lubing anything.

[20:1]

I used to use Lyman 450s with Lyman plate heaters, so this is similar enough to be relevant. The Lyman heaters were sized to keep a constant temp at the base, but all lubes are not created equal, with beeswax, microwaxes, and all the additives so, in my opinion at least, the temps are too high when the entire sizer reaches the point where it's heat soaked, or at full heater temp. I believe you could use a rheostat, or even a PID to regulate temps, but it's probably simpler to just unplug the heater when the lube seems to be too warm (it's often translucent at this point) and keep working as long as it isn't already too thin. You can plug it in again when you need to.

[jdgabbard]

Carnuba Red, as mentioned above, is a little difficult to balance where heat is concerned. I found that while I do need heat to be able to easily lube, the Lyman 4500 heater softened the lube too much, causing it to squeeze out of the bottom of the lubrisizer as well as around the base of the boolit. When I was still lubing boolits, I balanced this by running the heater for a little while, then unplugging the heater for a little while.

Knowing what I know today I would build a digital controller to control the heater with a SSR and PWM so that I could vary the duty cycle. But, everything is 20/20 in hindsight, right?

[lar45]

I plug my heater in until the lube starts to flow, then unplug it and lube bullets. After 20 minutes or so, plug it back in for 5 minutes-ish...

[slk]

Well guys I figured most of my issues out. I did the plug in it in for a little and then unplug. That worked out ok, but the bigger problem I had was user lazyness, as I had not cleaned out all of the previous harder lube from around the perimeter of the dies. I was having to crank the plunger harder to get the old lube out and used up. I took it all apart and cleaned it up and wala it is much easier to control now and is working like a charm.. Thanks for everyones input it was all very helpful...

Steve