.43 Spanish at 200 meters

[Rapidrob]

I took my .43 Spanish out today in a snow storm and cold. The target is an AR550 7/16" steel plate with a man torso silhouette painted on it.
The rifle is like new and I've owned it for 31 years.
I wanted to try, from the bench, Pyrodex, IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 as all three loads were posted as being good loads for this cartridge using a 380 grain lead bullet.
After each powder type, the bore was cleaned very well. None of the loads caused any leading of the bore ( wheel-weights )
I have three brass case types. Bertram Brass .43 Spanish, Bell Basic and Winchester .348. The latter being trimmed back and fired formed by me before this shoot.
The first powder tried was IMR 3031. Recoil was normal but the cold temp cause one dud and one hangfire ( Dacron wad used O/P )
Accuracy was poor. I did not notice the rear sight will not go down to 100 meters as it is supposed to ( see photo )
The smokeless powder loads shot 6 feet high at the 200 meter setting. My range is over 6,000 feet ASL
IMR- 4198 gave the best MV and accuracy using Kentucky-Windage and holding 3 feet under the target.
Pyrodex Rifle ( 69 grains of powder just touching the base of the bullet and very slightly compress 3/16" ) was a total joke. Accuracy was not there. Recoil mild,case dropped out of the chamber when the RB was opened.
The load caused the primers to be pierced as well as four of the Bertram Brass cases to split into two 1/2 way up the case. ( firing pin has a round nose ) This only happened using Pyrodex powder.
The same cases were used for the other two smokeless powders as well with no issues.
I loaded up 25 cartridges of each powder, all seated to the posted depth as well as a Dacron wad used in the smokeless loads.
Primers used were Winchester LR.
All bullets were slightly roll-crimped at the top grove. Bullets sized to .441
The rifle has potential to be better than Minute-Of-Man with the right load. The IMR-4198 gave me,when I did my part, a group of ten shots in 8" at 200 meters.
Once I fix the rear sight and not have to hold off I'm sure the rifle will group much better.
The rifle shoots to the left, not much can be done about that.
IMR-3031

PYRODEX

IMR-4198 ( figuring out the hold, ten shots in the left kidney ) Right hand hits, AR15 .223 by friend.

Primers

Rear sight has to be filed out a little as it hits the stop screw before the 100 meter setting.

My load data

[RustyReel]

Thanks for the report. I have a 43 Spanish that has been cut down to a "sporter". Haven't really done much with it and appreciate your data. This is for the regular 43 Spanish correct? and not the Reformado.

[Rapidrob]

Yes, the rifle is in the original .43 Spanish bottle neck cartridge.

[John in PA]

Argentine model or one of the other rolling block variants? Did you slug the bore?

[Rapidrob]

Argy....bore .439
If I find the .441 is too small for good obduration, I'll powder coat

[SteveOKo922]

Give black powder a try. Old rifles like this are designed to have bullet slug up in the bore with proper lead tin alloy bullets.

[Randy Bohannon]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ do B/P and problems will be much easier to work out.

[Rapidrob]

I loaded up 40 rounds of black powder loads. 20 of FG ( original load data ) and 20 rounds of FFG. I will try these out Saturday at 200 and 500 meters to see if there is better / worse accuracy.
I made a blow tube to keep the fowling soft here in the high desert. I will run a Simple Green patch after each five shots or less if needed if the fouling is dry/flaky.
With the original load there was no room for a grease cookie, with the FFG the bullet is out too far to close the RB with a grease cookie.
Both loads are compressed at least 1/2 inch.
I'm using a tougher primer to help stop piercing.

[doccash]

Why not shoot at 50- 100 yards until you get it dialed in better. Dr.C

[Rapidrob]

At ranges closer than 200 yards, the bullet is not stable in flight.
Col. Hatcher's book "Hatcher's Notetbook" as well as Dr. Mann's " A bullets flight"... wrote about this in their books.
One of our universities did a Doppler Radar tracking of rifle bullets from the muzzle to 200 yards and did see the bullet start to stabilize at about 180 yards and be fully stable at 200 yards.
We sight in and test our club members rifles / loads at 200 meters only.

[Abert Rim]

Some of the Argentines are throated for paper patched bullets. Have you tried paper patching?

[Rapidrob]

I just made a template for my guillotine cutter for the .43 caliber bullet, it was set up for my .40-65 400 grain bullets in the RRB.
I'll cast the throat the lead of the chamber to see how large it is.

[Rapidrob]

I took the rifle to the range today and due to the very cold weather only four of us showed up and the only distance they wanted to shoot was 500 meters for this months "Santa Clause Shoot", a match I've been holding for the last 28 years.
While cold the wind was behaving for the first hour. It was blowing about 15 MPH left to right across the target at a constant speed.
The rear sight was set to 400 meters and I had to hold over the target and to the left into the wind about three feet. If I folded up the leaf sight the lowest setting was 600 meters and even holding four feet under the target the bullet cleared the impact berm buy several feet. Flight time was about two seconds to the target and it took 15 shots to even get close to the target! The wind was not going to cooperate.
I finely found the "zero" and was able to get some hits until the wind picked up to 45 MPH and I could no longer even see the target due to tears in my eyes. I was shooting from a prone position using a front padded barrel support on the wood stock.
The impact angle was very steep. More than 50 degrees so the rounds were plunging into the target.
By the time we quit at 10:30 everyone was frozen to the bone and the wind was blowing the shooting mats into the next county.
The rifle did OK and a much younger mans eyes could have done better.
This load was 68 grains of FG ( not the 20 that was posted by mistake ) CCI Magnum LR primer and the bullet seated just before the rifling, powder compress 1/2"
Recoil was much milder than I thought it would be. The GOREX Black Powder was still the crap it was years ago. It flaked into the bore about 6 " from the muzzle and had to be cleaned out after evey 2nd shot for any accuracy. A blow tube did not help.
It is Very dry here. There was no grease cookie used in this load which probably did not help.
The rifle shows promise. Perhaps this next summer I'll pull it out and work up the best load it will shoot.
A view of the 500 meter berm from the firing line. ( in real life it is closer looking )


Here is a magnified view of the targets from the firing line.

A closer look at the AR550 man torso target we use for our matches.


Here is the target after 30 rounds had been fired. Only nine hits on target. The wind kept pushing the bullet farther to the right as the morning wore on.

[barnetmill]

I took my .43 Spanish ..
I have three brass case types. Bertram Brass .43 Spanish, Bell Basic and Winchester .348. The latter being trimmed back and fired formed by me before this shoot.
The first powder tried was IMR 3031. Recoil was normal but the cold temp cause one dud and one hangfire ( Dacron wad used O/P )....

I once many years ago tried to make some .43 spanish from .348 winchester and i could not get the base of a .348 case to chamber. I tried chucking the brass in a drill and filing the head of the case. I have have an old mold 380 grain mold that makes bullets that seem to fit. I tried firing it many years ago on an indoor range and have not tried anything since. I few years ago I purchased a few rounds of .43 spanish bass from track of the wolf that seem to fit. But I have done nothing with that rolling block.

[freakonaleash]

.43 spanish is the same as 44 77.

[ascast]

.43 spanish is the same as 44 77. NO THEY ARE NOT. 43 Spanish likes a .439 bullet or a tad bigger while 44-77 ( and 11mm Mauser) needs .446 or bigger.
I had an Argy once and it shot very well on the 100 yd range, like 3" groups. The rifle was not mine, the brass etc was. I have been tempted ever since to get another one. How is your trigger pull? Anything under 30 pounds is "match ready" lol

[Abert Rim]

A new trigger spring from rollingblockparts.com will make you very happy.
I suspect freak's point was that the two cases are virtually interchangeable other than resizing the neck to .439 vs .446. There seems to be a question as to which cartridge was the parent of the other.

[freakonaleash]

I said the cases were the same, not the bullets.

[ascast]

you will chew up your brass fast using a sizer/expander die that is off size by ten thousands. BTDT, don't say "no body told me!"

[Abert Rim]

Ascast, should be okay if you anneal first, then only neck size after that.