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Thread: Any advantage to 460 rowland over 45 super?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I don't know how you could possibly fire a .460 Rowland round in a .45 Super chamber, as the Rowland is 1/16th longer. The Super is beefier in the web, but otherwise identical externally to the .45 ACP case.
    Charlie, do you shoot at the Butterfield range? I used to work at the range run by Otero County.

  2. #22
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    I believe the OP is asking if it would be safe to use 460 Rowland load data in the 45 Super Case in a firearm rated for 460 Rowland.
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    And I think the real question is, which guns are capable of handling the pressures developed by .460 Rowland loads?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rintinglen View Post
    You answered your question in your original post. The 460 Rowland is longer, so it won't get put in a "wrong" gun by error should you pass away and your guns and ammo end up in the hands of some less knowledgeable person. I am at the stage where all my "+P+". ammo is getting used up so should one of my kids or grandkids grab a box of my reloads after I am gone, they won't break a gun or injure themselves through inadvertently loading the wrong ammo in the wrong gun.
    I feel like that could be easily accomplished by putting it in a box marked 45 super do not fire in 45 ACP gun with lots of exclamation points. Seems like a pretty specific scenario to Warrant a completely different cartridge when it has no actual advantage power wise

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    I believe the OP is asking if it would be safe to use 460 Rowland load data in the 45 Super Case in a firearm rated for 460 Rowland.
    Yes that's exactly what I mean

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    And I think the real question is, which guns are capable of handling the pressures developed by .460 Rowland loads?
    Considering the fact that 357 Sig runs at the same pressure I'd say most pistols, obviously Glock FN Springfield HK and 1911s since they are listed by Rowland

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    So, yes, you could fire the .460 Rowland load in a .45 super. Rowland claims to make their barrels out of special material, but, I don't know what pressures they run at so don't know if a std 1911 barrel would work or not. You would at least need to beef up the recoil spring.

    Find someone with a strain gage setup to see what pressure it is running at.

    FWIW, ran GRT with 230gn and AA7. To get 1300fps it would be upward of 35000psi.
    Well Roland claims to use the same 416 stainless that pretty much everyone else does, they do mention heat treat but they are pretty vague about it, I'm guessing it's purely marketing. Seeing as the pressures are no higher than something like a 357 Sig I doubt they're doing anything special

  8. #28
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    I've read of reports of primer flow with 460 Rowland rounds but never heard anything about the chamber walls being too thin or anything like that. I'm thinking that 450 SMC would be even stronger yet than the Ryland with the small primer, however brass seems to be unobtainium at the moment

  9. #29
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    I guess you tot answers to all of your questions. I'd get some .45super brass and try the heavier loads.

    FWIW, there were a few threads about dealing with increased recoil in the 1911 platform. I believe it was on the subject of hot 10mm loads but maybe it was another Rowland discussion. Things like higher tension hammer springs and squared off firing pin retainers to delay the unlocking. That holds the barrel locked until the pressure reduces a bit, leading to a lower rated recoil spring. I've never tried any of that since my days with 'heavy' guns is over.

  10. #30
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    In 1911s, you can mitigate primer flow somewhat (maybe altogether) with an oversized firing pin combined with heavier firing pin spring. Oversized firing pins are offered by Wilson and EGW probably others.

    Oversized pins will take some trial and error fitting.

    FWIW,

    Paul

  11. #31
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    So no one has mentioned the comp/brake slowing down the unlock on 460 Rowland. I thought that was the magic sause to 460 all along?

    Somewhere I think there is slow motion footage that debunks this but didn't locate it before posting.

    Im new to 460 R so all this is interesting to me.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnForrest View Post
    So no one has mentioned the comp/brake slowing down the unlock on 460 Rowland. I thought that was the magic sause to 460 all along?

    Somewhere I think there is slow motion footage that debunks this but didn't locate it before posting.

    Im new to 460 R so all this is interesting to me.
    Yes the comp should slow down slide speed and keep it locked slightly longer due to the gas working against the ports and the added weight. That's the theory anyway if like to see slow mo footage of a 460 or hot 45 super with and without a comp

  13. #33
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    Love these threads…read them in frequently some version across multiple sites. My .02$, as I shot a 45S for years in my 4506, one can accomplish 90% of the 45S with a +P 45.

    As for the 10mm and bear protection? Magazine capacity is a false god. I’ll take a 44M any day and everyday, thank you.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anchorite View Post
    Love these threads…read them in frequently some version across multiple sites. My .02$, as I shot a 45S for years in my 4506, one can accomplish 90% of the 45S with a +P 45.

    As for the 10mm and bear protection? Magazine capacity is a false god. I’ll take a 44M any day and everyday, thank you.
    Were talking about 45 super being able to accomplish what 460 rowland can, not 45 acp being able to accomplish what 45 super can.

  15. #35
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    I bet there is a fella at Clark Customs that could/would answer this question if the right guy asked him. I haven't spent enough money there yet so I am not the guy. With the new V2 dampner system they claim you can go down to something like a 12 pound recoil spring. To me the neat thing about that is alot less worry about bullet setback like you could easily get with a 22 pounder.

    I like your origional question Longranger. I have a bunch of super brass too.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnForrest View Post
    I bet there is a fella at Clark Customs that could/would answer this question if the right guy asked him. I haven't spent enough money there yet so I am not the guy. With the new V2 dampner system they claim you can go down to something like a 12 pound recoil spring. To me the neat thing about that is alot less worry about bullet setback like you could easily get with a 22 pounder.

    I like your origional question Longranger. I have a bunch of super brass too.
    That's a good idea I'll shoot them a message and post their response here

  17. #37
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    I emailed Clark customs but never heard anything back. Oh well.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    I believe the OP is asking if it would be safe to use 460 Rowland load data in the 45 Super Case in a firearm rated for 460 Rowland.
    MY short answer is NO!
    My longer answer is that you really shouldn't. The .460 Rowland data was worked up in .460 Rowland brass which is 1/16th inch longer and far thicker in the web area. This translates to lower case capacity for the .460 Rowland.
    Using these data in a .45 Super case, the web of which is only slightly thicker than stock .45 ACP, and the capacity of which is only slightly greater than the .460 Rowland, will probably yield attenuated performance and a very real risk of a ruptured case head.
    It's been a while since I've looked at the .460 Rowland, but I thought that the conversion kit also came with a permanently attached muzzle brake which delayed slide retraction for precious milliseconds until chamber pressures dropped somewhat. Is this no longer the case?

    As to which firearms are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures, the answer is probably "All of them, at least for a while." A more detailed answer is that pistols with steel forged frames are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures for more rounds than steel investment cast frames, alloy frames, and polymer frames.
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  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Rowland doesn't seem to care what the frame of the pistol is made of, but, he does put limits on the slide and does not seem to recommend stainless slides.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
    MY short answer is NO!
    My longer answer is that you really shouldn't. The .460 Rowland data was worked up in .460 Rowland brass which is 1/16th inch longer and far thicker in the web area. This translates to lower case capacity for the .460 Rowland.
    Using these data in a .45 Super case, the web of which is only slightly thicker than stock .45 ACP, and the capacity of which is only slightly greater than the .460 Rowland, will probably yield attenuated performance and a very real risk of a ruptured case head.
    It's been a while since I've looked at the .460 Rowland, but I thought that the conversion kit also came with a permanently attached muzzle brake which delayed slide retraction for precious milliseconds until chamber pressures dropped somewhat. Is this no longer the case?

    As to which firearms are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures, the answer is probably "All of them, at least for a while." A more detailed answer is that pistols with steel forged frames are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures for more rounds than steel investment cast frames, alloy frames, and polymer frames.
    This is incorrect. Starline themselves states that the 45 super brass is identical in thickness to 460 brass in all areas, the only difference being in the length, which serves ONLY to prevent 460 ammo from chambering in a 45 acp chamber (it also makes Mr. Rowland a lot of money The cartridge overall length of 45 super and 460 rowland are identical, meaning the bullet is simply seated further into the 460 case, resulting in identical case capacity and identical strength. Meaning they should be able to share load data.

    As far as the host gun goes, yes the compensator is an important part in taming slide speed with the hot 460 loads, and the same compensator can be used on any threaded 45 acp barrel with a well supported chamber without the added expense of reaming to 460 length or buying Rowlands expensive parts.
    Oh and 45 super brass is significantly cheaper than 460 rowland brass. For the reloader who isn't concerned about mixing up brass, 45 super makes the most sense as it can do everything the 460 rowland can do at a fraction of the price.
    Last edited by Longranger44; 01-12-2024 at 05:14 AM.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check