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Thread: Any advantage to 460 rowland over 45 super?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Any advantage to 460 rowland over 45 super?

    For someone who rolls their own and has a well supported 45 acp barrel with a comp, is there any advantage to 460 rowland vs 45 super? The coal and case capacity is identical and starline says the brass is identical save for the length... So aside from avoiding putting a super cartridge in a 45 acp gun that can't handle it, is there any point to the rowland other than to separate the customer from his money?

  2. #2
    Boolit Bub
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    And along the same lines, shouldn't the 450 smc be even stronger yet than both the 45 super and the 460 theoretically?
    Last edited by Longranger44; 11-20-2023 at 07:02 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longranger44 View Post
    And along the same lines, shouldn't the 450 smc be even stronger yet than both the super the 460 theoretically?
    The 45 Super is equal to the 450 smc and 460 Rowland is significantly more potent based on published data. I only have firsthand experience with the 460 Rowland.

    http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/c...dator-defense/

    https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...ive-cartridge/

    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-20-2023 at 05:47 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longranger44 View Post
    For someone who rolls their own and has a well supported 45 acp barrel with a comp, is there any advantage to 460 rowland vs 45 super? The coal and case capacity is identical and starline says the brass is identical save for the length... So aside from avoiding putting a super cartridge in a 45 acp gun that can't handle it, is there any point to the rowland other than to separate the customer from his money?
    For hunting and grizzly bear defense the 460 Rowland gives you middle of the road 44 Mag ballistics out of a semi-auto. My 460 Rowland is in an FN FNX-45 Tactical for the specific propose of grizzly bear defense.

    15 plus 1 rounds of 460 Rowland in a 33 oz. double action/single action in a Kenai Chest Holster is about as good as it gets for bear defense. Mine is 100% reliable to date.

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=231
    255gr. hard cast bullet @ 1300 fps or a 230gr. FMJ-FN bullet @ 1350 fps.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-20-2023 at 06:33 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    The 45 Super is equal to the 450 smc and 460 Rowland is significantly more potent based on published data. I only have firsthand experience with the 460 Rowland.

    http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/c...dator-defense/

    https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...ive-cartridge/

    Yes I know what they're rated at and loaded to, but since the brass and capacity is identical I don't see why the 45 super couldn't be loaded to the exact same pressure as the 460, and the 450 smc maybe even higher yet?

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I am in the mountains around 120 days a year in bear land. I have carried a 44 mag SBH for around 20 years. I was perplexed about the 10mm vs. revolver argument until quite recently due to an HP friend explaining to me what happened during his firearm requalification. Place the barrel of your semi auto against a biological barrier (i.e. Body) and pull the trigger. You turned your semi auto into a mallet. I disagreed and purchased a Smith and Wesson 10mm. He was correct. One shot and you're jammed.
    Another personal soap box - if it's concerning bears that mean to do you dirty encountered on the trail - you ain't fast enough. Period. Unless you are drawn and prepared - ain't no one fast enough. Disagree? You haven't encountered many bears that mean to do you harm.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    I am in the mountains around 120 days a year in bear land. I have carried a 44 mag SBH for around 20 years. I was perplexed about the 10mm vs. revolver argument until quite recently due to an HP friend explaining to me what happened during his firearm requalification. Place the barrel of your semi auto against a biological barrier (i.e. Body) and pull the trigger. You turned your semi auto into a mallet. I disagreed and purchased a Smith and Wesson 10mm. He was correct. One shot and you're jammed.
    Another personal soap box - if it's concerning bears that mean to do you dirty encountered on the trail - you ain't fast enough. Period. Unless you are drawn and prepared - ain't no one fast enough. Disagree? You haven't encountered many bears that mean to do you harm.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    I guess there is no point in carrying a handgun for bear defense...........

    These folks would disagree and they had bears meaning to do the dirty to them.

    Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks – 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective
    https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/han...#axzz8JktBCwW3

    https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/upd...#axzz8JktBCwW3

    On a side note I've had a 629 lockup in a freezing light rain while deer hunting and yes it was in a holster. In the area I spend time in AK it's a rare day when you don't see at least one grizzly within 200 yards. I've been within 20 feet of grizzlies three times and a bunch of times within 20 yards. Had one last year at about 20 yards that didn't flinch when 3 rounds of 12 gauge and 2 rounds of 375 H&H were fired over his back. He was young and only about a 6 footer.

    I have S&W 29's, S&W 629's, a S&W 460, a bunch of single action Ruger's in 44 Mag and 45 Colt and a couple of 6" 1911's in 10mm. For me my 460 Rowland in an FN FNX-45 Tactical is my go-to grizzly defense handgun. Least desirable would be a single action 1911 simply because the open area of the hammer collects to much junks when you are cutting and collecting wood or rocks for riprap. With a full flap holster it would be fine.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    I guess there is no point in carrying a handgun for bear defense...........

    These folks would disagree and they had bears meaning to do the dirty to them.

    Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks – 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective
    https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/han...#axzz8JktBCwW3

    https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/upd...#axzz8JktBCwW3

    On a side note I've had a 629 lockup in a freezing light rain while deer hunting and yes it was in a holster. In the area I spend time in AK it's a rare day when you don't see at least one grizzly within 200 yards. I've been within 20 feet of grizzlies three times and a bunch of times within 20 yards. Had one last year at about 20 yards that didn't flinch when 3 rounds of 12 gauge and 2 rounds of 375 H&H were fired over his back. He was young and only about a 6 footer.

    I have S&W 29's, S&W 629's, a S&W 460, a bunch of single action Ruger's in 44 Mag and 45 Colt and a couple of 6" 1911's in 10mm. For me my 460 Rowland in an FN FNX-45 Tactical is my go-to grizzly defense handgun. Least desirable would be a single action 1911 simply because the open area of the hammer collects to much junks when you are cutting and collecting wood or rocks for riprap. With a full flap holster it would be fine.
    I have read that study. I am only offering my experiences. My close calls have been at 10 yards and less, meeting at a switchback - hilltop - happenstance. The speed of a bear for the man that's alert but un-drawn is far too discrepant. My office staff bought me a Mossberg Shockwave for my March birthday several years ago (to preserve their employment presumably), no way faster. I have a chest rig for my BH and I don't think that I would even touch the grips had those bears elected to close the deal. If I smell dead critter or my horse gets snorty - I am en pointe and drawn. I put several hundred rounds through that revolver every year and trust mine and my family's lives to it against any 2 legged critters, but sumf a buck they are fast. I have taken the bear defense course through my work and with the government trappers - I have passed with flying colours every time.... just haven't met anyone fast enough to seal the deal if one elects to go claws and jaws from close range. Does that mean I stopped carrying?? Absolutely not. I come heavy with religious fervor !! As do my kids and my wife!!! I just am not sure that carrying bigger and better and harder is the answer. As a matter of fact, I'll take my SBH over anything anyone else has to offer. Try pulling a BFR or X Frame!
    I have heard the argument that LEO's and the military have relied on semiautomatic pistols for several decades, but I challenge anyone that shoots consistently and takes pride in their shooting to go to an LEO proficiency day. You will outshoot nearly every one due to sheer trigger time - regardless of the action you choose.
    I have had more encounters with the 2 and 4 legged threats than I wish to repeat, I just hope the guy that is banking on more rounds faster is able to be proficient when it actually matters.

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  9. #9
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    You are correct that most LE and military are poor shots at best unless they are avid shooters or competitors. The US military switched to semi-auto handguns in 1911. In large part that was due to better reliability under the extreme conditions of combat. For the average user the edge goes to the revolver.

    I have a couple of Remington Tac 14's. Tons of fun but slow to deploy and easy to shoot high or low. X frames are not much better to deploy. For me years of competition with a 1911 gives the speed and accuracy edge for first shot and follow-up shots to the 1911's or my FN FNX-45 Tactical verse double action revolvers. I've shot a lot of single action revolvers, and my first shot speed and accuracy are about the same as my 629 and FN FNX-45 Tactical. After the first shot the 460 Rowland really shows it's worth. For me the 460 Rowland in an FN FNX-45 Tactical is a better option than my 629. It's 15 ounces lighter than my 7 1/2" SBH empty and even with 16 rounds loaded it still just under the weight of my SBH empty.

    What job do you have that allows you to carry a personal SBH? The only single actions I've seen as a duty gun was a Sheriff. He carried a Colt 2nd Generation Peacemaker in 45 Colt. He was the real deal. WWII and Korean vet he was amazing with a revolver.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-22-2023 at 05:01 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  10. #10
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    I am in the mountains around 120 days a year in bear land. I have carried a 44 mag SBH for around 20 years. I was perplexed about the 10mm vs. revolver argument until quite recently due to an HP friend explaining to me what happened during his firearm requalification. Place the barrel of your semi auto against a biological barrier (i.e. Body) and pull the trigger. You turned your semi auto into a mallet. I disagreed and purchased a Smith and Wesson 10mm. He was correct. One shot and you're jammed.
    Another personal soap box - if it's concerning bears that mean to do you dirty encountered on the trail - you ain't fast enough. Period. Unless you are drawn and prepared - ain't no one fast enough. Disagree? You haven't encountered many bears that mean to do you harm.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    A simple rail mounted standoff device cures that issue

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    What was done to your FN to allow it to fire the Rowland?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    What was done to your FN to allow it to fire the Rowland?
    I did get a second barrel for 460 Rowland use only. I have maybe 5K thru the 45ACP barrel and about 250 thru the 460 Rowland. It's been 100% for reliability. Trigger isn't the greatest. Accuracy is 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" for five shots at 25 yards. 16 rounds of 255 grain at close to 1300 fps is very controllable.

    https://460rowland.com/product/compe...45-conversion/

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=231
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-22-2023 at 08:53 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longranger44 View Post
    A simple rail mounted standoff device cures that issue
    I don't disagree with you - I challenge you to poll your shooting friends on what that device is and what it for, however.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    I don't disagree with you - I challenge you to poll your shooting friends on what that device is and what it for, however.

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    Lol who cares if others know what it's for?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longranger44 View Post
    Lol who cares if others know what it's for?
    I may have misspoke. I don't know how many know that exists. But it looks like a good idea!

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    I did get a second barrel for 460 Rowland use only. I have maybe 5K thru the 45ACP barrel and about 250 thru the 460 Rowland. It's been 100% for reliability. Trigger isn't the greatest. Accuracy is 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" for five shots at 25 yards. 16 rounds of 255 grain at close to 1300 fps is very controllable.

    https://460rowland.com/product/compe...45-conversion/

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=231
    Thanks.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    I may have misspoke. I don't know how many know that exists. But it looks like a good idea!

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    Yeah its not something I've ever seen in real life but it solves the problem you describe. A simple weapon light that extend beyond the muzzle will accomplish the same thing also.

  18. #18
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    I'm still curious about my original question and anyone's thoughts on that...

  19. #19
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    You answered your question in your original post. The 460 Rowland is longer, so it won't get put in a "wrong" gun by error should you pass away and your guns and ammo end up in the hands of some less knowledgeable person. I am at the stage where all my "+P+". ammo is getting used up so should one of my kids or grandkids grab a box of my reloads after I am gone, they won't break a gun or injure themselves through inadvertently loading the wrong ammo in the wrong gun.
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    So, yes, you could fire the .460 Rowland load in a .45 super. Rowland claims to make their barrels out of special material, but, I don't know what pressures they run at so don't know if a std 1911 barrel would work or not. You would at least need to beef up the recoil spring.

    Find someone with a strain gage setup to see what pressure it is running at.

    FWIW, ran GRT with 230gn and AA7. To get 1300fps it would be upward of 35000psi.
    Last edited by charlie b; 11-30-2023 at 11:46 AM.

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