I am having an issue with Lee 44 special die and .432 cast bullet

[leadhead]

Are those NOE expander plugs drilled for powder thru like the Lee?
Thanks for any info.

[bcraig]

I have a fat bored Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. and find that the carbide dies really size... over size the brass, then when I seat my 0.434" boolits the loaded rounds look funny because they are bulging under the boolit! They chamber and fire fine but as noted, case mouths are chamfered and deburred then flared. I also keep the brass annealed. If you have the correct size expander plug you may not have to worry about annealing so much but I was finding that the brass was squeezing down the boolit base a bit during seating.

I should see about getting sizing dies that are larger or can be opened up as the brass is being worked a lot with oversizing then expanding. You will be in the same situation. However, with the proper size expander plug you should have better results.

Longbow

Like I said the NOE Powder through expanding Plug and the other parts I listed solved the Issue.

Also without even sizing the case it was way too small and even with a severe belling the bullet would barely start to enter the case and then the soft bullet was being shaved when brought to the crimp groove ..I needed a bigger expander plug and a longer expander plug,not just a Mouth belling.

[bcraig]

Are those NOE expander plugs drilled for powder thru like the Lee?
Thanks for any info.

Some are and some are not.

[bcraig]

Shaving boolits when searing? Add more flare. Trying to push a .432" slug into a .429" tube can be pretty difficult. Bullets, cast and others, need an entry way into the case. That entry way is case mouth flare...
K.I.S.S.!

More to the story than that.
Cases were small when coming straight from the rifles chamber ,without resizing at all the bullet was just sitting on top of the chamber.
Only after doing an Inside chamfering and a pretty severe belling would the Bullet just Barely slip inside the case .
and the expander plug was not going deep enough which was shaving the 20-1 (approx 10 BHN bullet.)
So just a good belling was not solving the issues I wanted solved
The Lee expander plug was too small,it was too short for the soft Bullets I wanted to shoot from my rifle.
The NOE 434-430 expander Plug and the Parts I listed solved that Issue.
No amount of additional flare or belling was going to solve those issue's in MY rifle .

Maybe one with a looser chamber and or a Hotter Load than the HSM Factory Loaded 240Grain 4.5 grains of titegroup would have expanded the whole case more ?
maybe that and a harder bullet would have had no lead shaving ?
I dont know .

But so far the issues are all fine now.

[bcraig]

The Lyman "M" die is a very useful expander die. Two more sides of the equation is to make sure you are inside deburring your case mouths and not excessively under sizing your cases in the first place.

I use a VLD deburring tool almost exclusively lately.

As for over sizing brass, that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. While carbide sizer dies are very prevalent now, they are not very conducive to lapping to a larger size for lay folks. While different die makers have different sizing criteria it's not easy to get info from them as to specific dimensions.

Other than trial and error, that of buying dies until you fall into one that sizes less, it leaves one to buying a steel die and laaping/having it lapped out somewhat.

Three44s

I was using a Cheap Lee deburring tool and I was not sizing too much as the cases were straight from firing In my Rossi 92 Carbine with HSM 240 grain semi wadcitter's .
With the Noe setup a couple of light turns with the hand tool and all is fine.
Dont even know if that is really needed or not.

[gloob]

bcraig, you might want to try sizing those cases, now that you have a proper expander.

The mouth might be too small to fit a 432 bullet, straight out of your Rossi, but you should not be able to pull a seated bullet out with your fingers!

I use expanders 2 thous larger than yours. When seating a 432 bullet, I would buy the NOE 432/436, if they offer it. There will still be 100% neck tension when doing this, if the brass is adequately sized to begin with. Even without a crimp, boolits cannot be pulled out with fingers. And if the case was squeaky clean and there's a lot of seating area, maybe not even with a kinetic bullet puller!

The chamber in your Rossi is tight at the very mouth. But there's obviously some expansion of the case where the base of the bullet seats. I have a chamber like this, and there's another thing to watch out for.

If the mouth of the brass doesn't have enough room to open out, to where you need a bit of roll crimp just to even get the ammo to drop in the chamber under gravity, then the mouth of the case is going to swage the bullet as it's fired. If this swaged size is smaller than the bore, then you'll have to hope to find an alloy and load combo that bumps the boolit back up. I sort out the thicker cases that produce this problem in my gun, and I give the case mouths a bit of turning to thin them down so this doesn't happen.

As for case chamfer, yes. When the NOE flare step is only 2 thous larger than the bullet, I find you must inside chamfer cases to ensure there are no shavings. When you get to 3 over on the step flare, you don't need to do that, even after a trim that leaves a sharp inside edge. When you get to 4 over, the rim of the mouth will be very slightly floating off the surface of the boolit, and you might start requiring a light crimp in tight chambers.

[Chill Wills]

I am not sure you want a slip fit that the bullet can be hand seated. At least 0.001 or 0.002" on the bullet is good. Also, expect some spring-back after the expander opens up the case. Expanders can be had in any size needed.

[bcraig]

bcraig, you might want to try sizing those cases, now that you have a proper expander.

The mouth might be too small to fit a 432 bullet, straight out of your Rossi, but you should not be able to pull a seated bullet out with your fingers!

I use expanders 2 thous larger than yours. When seating a 432 bullet, I would buy the NOE 432/436, if they offer it. There will still be 100% neck tension when doing this, if the brass is adequately sized to begin with. Even without a crimp, boolits cannot be pulled out with fingers. And if the case was squeaky clean and there's a lot of seating area, maybe not even with a kinetic bullet puller!

The chamber in your Rossi is tight at the very mouth. But there's obviously some expansion of the case where the base of the bullet seats. I have a chamber like this, and there's another thing to watch out for.

If the mouth of the brass doesn't have enough room to open out, to where you need a bit of roll crimp just to even get the ammo to drop in the chamber under gravity, then the mouth of the case is going to swage the bullet as it's fired. If this swaged size is smaller than the bore, then you'll have to hope to find an alloy and load combo that bumps the boolit back up. I sort out the thicker cases that produce this problem in my gun, and I give the case mouths a bit of turning to thin them down so this doesn't happen.

As for case chamfer, yes. When the NOE flare step is only 2 thous larger than the bullet, I find you must inside chamfer cases to ensure there are no shavings. When you get to 3 over on the step flare, you don't need to do that, even after a trim that leaves a sharp inside edge. When you get to 4 over, the rim of the mouth will be very slightly floating off the surface of the boolit, and you might start requiring a light crimp in tight chambers.

No Shaving of the bullet when using the Noe 434-430
Tad less than .431 Bore ,Land to Land
Using 20/1 10 Brinell Hardness
About 14,000 Pressure Using Hp-38
Dont know if that will Obturate?
I will try dropping a round in the chamber and see what Happens.

[bcraig]

I am not sure you want a slip fit that the bullet can be hand seated. At least 0.001 or 0.002" on the bullet is good. Also, expect some spring-back after the expander opens up the case. Expanders can be had in any size needed.

M die expander ?

[Jtarm]

I am not sure you want a slip fit that the bullet can be hand seated. At least 0.001 or 0.002" on the bullet is good. Also, expect some spring-back after the expander opens up the case. Expanders can be had in any size needed.

What he said.

I aim to hand-seat the bullet to just above the base driving band so it presents as straight as possible.

Spring back is worse with thicker cases. I went through all my thousands of .38 special cases and purged all of the Euro brass, which seems to be thicker than domestic.

[onelight]

To each his own but I would not be comfortable with bullets that could be seated and pulled with my bare hands in anything but a single shot rifle .
Case expansion .002 smaller than bullet diameter is consider perfect by many experienced cast reloaders you need that neck tension and a crimp for safety and consistent burn with many guns and loads . As has been said the flare on the case mouth is what will prevent shaving the bullet.
I use the Noe expanders on 44 special and they are great but the flare I add with the factory Lee 44 special powder through die in a station separate from the NOE expander .
You may need to seat your Lee powder through expander deeper in the case to adjust to the proper flare.
Your die may not be working normally but I have many sets of Lee pistol dies and they all will adjust to give flare for cast.

[gloob]

He doesn't have neck tension because he's not sizing his cases. Right out of his gun's chamber, the very mouth of the case is too small to get a boolit in there, so he thinks he can forgo sizing. But the case below the very mouth is obviously too big/loose. He needs to size his cases, then use the expander. His expander isn't too big. It's at least 2 thous smaller than it could be.

No Shaving of the bullet when using the Noe 434-430

Yeah, but you just finished saying how you lightly deburred your cases, already:

I was using a Cheap Lee deburring tool and I was not sizing too much as the cases were straight from firing In my Rossi 92 Carbine with HSM 240 grain semi wadcitter's .
With the Noe setup a couple of light turns with the hand tool and all is fine.
Dont even know if that is really needed or not.

When your flare step is only 2 thous, 434 flare step for a 432 bullet, I find you have to do an inside chamfer/debur after trimming, for cases that need to be trimmed. For 44 magnum doesn't matter. You will only ever trim/debur them once.

[Jtarm]

I don’t get the need for flaring in addition to running the NOE expander.

I run the case just barely over the second shoulder (indicated by the arrow.). That gives enough flare to get the base of the bullet past the mouth without damage.



The large diameter portion (+.002) goes 1/10” deep. If everything’s the right dimensions, I can press the bullet in just that far, so it’s good & straight.

The seater die handles the rest.

[gloob]

I set the die so the first step barely enters, and the "second step" doesn't touch the case.

That "second step," is just where the die ends. It's not a standard amount larger than the step flare.

[Bazoo]

I don’t get the need for flaring in addition to running the NOE expander.

I run the case just barely over the second shoulder (indicated by the arrow.). That gives enough flare to get the base of the bullet past the mouth without damage.



The large diameter portion (+.002) goes 1/10” deep. If everything’s the right dimensions, I can press the bullet in just that far, so it’s good & straight.

The seater die handles the rest.

I do this to get maximum length for my RCBS 44-250-K.

I set the die so the first step barely enters, and the "second step" doesn't touch the case.

That "second step," is just where the die ends. It's not a standard amount larger than the step flare.

Anytime I can get away with it, I do closer to this, usually about half the way up the first step.

[Jtarm]

I set the die so the first step barely enters, and the "second step" doesn't touch the case.

That "second step," is just where the die ends. It's not a standard amount larger than the step flare.

Without hitting that second step, I can’t get the base past the case mouth.

Forgot to mention: I’m loading full wadcutters, so I need some depth.

[Chill Wills]

If I may, so we are all on the same page using terms, in the picture above the upper most diameter is the flair and the shoulder below it connect the two cylinders of different diameters.
Normally, in a correctly sized expander, the smaller cylinder is 0.002" or so smaller than the diameter of the bullet to be used. This depends on how much you want to hug the seated bullet. The upper cylinder is 0.002" over the diameter of the bullet and is plenty large enough to start and seat the bullet with-out shaving lead. In the rare event there is an issue, built into the expander above the upper, larger cylinder is a flair that you can trumpet the case mouth as much as you want.

Lyman M-dies come in common calibers and in one size. If you bullet is in the middle of that range the Lyman die will work very well. Lyman does not list the numbers. If you have LEE dies, the very good NOE replacement is the way to go. The price is right and they are offered in a number of sizes. I can make custom sizes to any diameters you think you need. These are hand made.

In use, you would want to set the die up so just 0.050" to 0.100" of the (upper) large diameter cylinder, (not the flair) enters the case mouth so as to expand the case mouth just large enough to start the bullet. The long, bullet length lower cylinder, puts just the right amount of hold on the bullet. This replacement expander is larger than the stock expander, which is a compromise, made for jacketed bullets and cast, In some stock die sets, the smaller factory expander -squeeze- is so tight, it reduces the diameter of the seated bullet. Our carefully cast and sized bullets get altered before they even enter the barrel.

[gloob]

Normally, in a correctly sized expander, the smaller cylinder is 0.002" or so smaller than the diameter of the bullet to be used. This depends on how much you want to hug the seated bullet. The upper cylinder is 0.002" over the diameter of the bullet and is plenty large enough to start and seat the bullet with-out shaving lead.

The case will shrink after you withdraw the plug, provided it was sized properly to begin with. The exact amount of springback will vary with the alloy and workhardening/annealing, but it will generally be about 1.5 and 2 thousandths. That 1.5-2 thousandths of springiness is where neck tension comes from. So you will get 100% neck tension from an expander plug that is the same size as the boolit. The tension won't start to decrease until the plug gets larger than the boolit and will be completely gone by the time you're 2 over.

If the flare step is only 2 thous larger than the bullet, a bullet will just barely get started in there and seated without shavings, if mouth is chamfered. 3 thous is perfect. 4 thous starts to get a tiny bit excessive.

[Chill Wills]

I don't agree. Experience shows the spring back to be smaller. I think your estimate of 0.0015' to 0.002" spring back is way to big. Yes, I agree there will be some spring and it depends on the hardness v anneal state of your brass. I never anneal my revolver brass and measured spring back is a < thousandth. This system works for untold numbers of hand loaders.

The remedy is simple for anyone thinking their brass is different, order the expander in a custom size.

[gloob]

It doesn't matter if your brass is different and springs back more or less. However elastic it is, that's what holds the bullet in. If your brass only springs back half a thous, then after you withdraw an expander that is 432, it will shrink to 431.5 and give 100% of its neck tension to a 432 bullet.

If you use an expander that is 430, it shrinks to 429.5. Now you put your 432 bullet in. It has same half a thous of tension. After you pull the bullet, the case mouth will measures 41.5, just like the 432 expander left it. Your boolit finished the last 2 thous of expansion, itself. Hopefully it didn't get swaged in the process.

My brass cases springback 1.5-2 thous. Even using an expander that is 1 thous larger than the bullet leaves close to full tension. Hard to tell any difference. 2 thous larger, and it's game over.