.30-40 Krag Advice

[OrlonTheBrave]

Hello friends,

I’m new to reloading, having started this fall. I began with .32 S&W long, and once I got the hang of that I decided to try .30-40 Krag. However, I’ve had some issues, and could use your advice.

I cooked up 13 rounds this week of a mild load to get started. I had trouble finding bullets the right size and weight. The only 220 grain I could find were labelled 300Blk, so I went with a lighter lrnfp.

Acme .309 155 grain powder coated lrnfp
20.4 grains imr4227
2.674” oal

I headed out to the 50 yard range and warmed up with my AR-15 (left). I shoot irons, and for a warm-up I’m happy if I can get most of my shots on the sticker.

When I shot the Krag (right?), all 13 rounds fed and fired without a hitch, and the recoil impulse was consistent. However, the rounds were going all over the paper, and even missing it entirely. It looks like one might have even keyholed.


https://imgur.com/a/6CFcqhW

What do y’all think might be the cause? I figure it might be one or more of the below, but I am not an expert.
- Shooter error
- Dirty rifle
- Damaged crown
- Jump (too short COAL)
- Shaved lead when seating
- Undersized bullets
- Too low velocity

When I checked the bore when I bought the rifle the rifling was clear and sharply defined, so I don’t think I’m shooting a musket. The sights are also aftermarket Williams, so I don’t think it’s that either.

It is a new rifle to me, the sights are open rather than aperture, and the trigger is heavier than I’m used to in a rifle, so it’s probably user error to some extent. However, given my grouping with my AR I would think I could get all the rounds on a pie plate, at least.

I’m going to need a case trimmer and case chamfer/deburring tool before I load up the next batch, which might help with seating and any case related issues. I’ll also give the chamber/bore a good cleaning.

What do y’all think might be the cause (and the solution)?

[Charliemac]

Clean and slug the barrel that may give you some insight.

[littlejack]

OTB:
First off, welcome to the CastBoolits sir.
Being new to the Krag myself, I can tell you, you have come to the right place for information. The members here are the best folks, and will freely give you the best advice. I was in your position a few months back, with buying my first ever Krag firearm. Here's some information I received from the members. First off, clean the bore until you're sure all of the old copper from jacketed bullets is removed. If you can, buy yourself a nice receiver/peep sight for your rifle. I found a really nice Redfield on flebay. IMHO, your biggest help to smaller groups would be to shoot longer heavier cast boolits. If your boolits are scattered or hitting sideways, they are not stabilizing. They're either to short, or do not fit the bore properly. As Charliemac stated, slug the bore to find out what size boolit is needed. I shoot the Lyman 311284 gc design. Do not full length size your brass, it will work harden quicker than neck or partial sizing and crack. When chambering a cartridge, you want to feel some pressure when closing the bolt. This means, there is no headspace.
If you will go to the Military Rifles sight, you will see I posted a thread titled " New to me 30-40 Krag" there is a lot of good information there. I see that you are new to reloading, so asking questions is the answer, and the right thing to do. If you are unsure of a procedure, ask questions. We can and will help.
You have opened up a whole new chapter in your life.

[405grain]

1. slug the barrel. You won't know what diameter bullets are going to work in your rifle until after you determine the bore size.
2. Don't shave lead. Before you seat a cast bullet in any cartridge, the case mouth needs to have a slight bell to it. Use either a Lyman M die or a Lee universal case mouth expander die.
3. The Lyman # 311284 bullet was literally designed for the 30-40 Krag. See if you can get some of these (but slug the bore first to make sure that you get the right size)
4. A velocity between 1600 fps and 1900 fps should give you best accuracy. You can work up loads to over 2000 fps with the Krag if the accuracy doesn't fall off.
5. Yes, check the crown. If the rifle was cleaned from the muzzle for decades with a steel cleaning rod the rifling at the muzzle could be damaged.

[gwpercle]

Welcome to Cast Boolits from Baton Rouge , Louisiana !

Your words remind me of my own questions ... it was about 1968 and I had a 1903-A3 Springfield 30-06 , single cavity Lyman mould and absolutely no idea what I was doing . This site will save you ... some Krag shooters will be along to give 30-40 advice ... but I can tell you you need to start with a completely cleaned bore .
Bore cleaning to remove all fouling isn't as easy as it sounds .
Cleaning rod , brass brush , bore cleaners . brass brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool and smeared with J-B Bore Compound and lots of elbow grease is step #1 .
Here is where the fun starts ,
Welcome aboard
Gary

[mehavey]

- Undersized bullets

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

Take a look at I finally found req'd/works:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...27&postcount=8 (100yrd)
actual Oehler velocity: 2,173 ± 07
(Admission: it was benched )


NOTES
- "Grafs" cases/brass
- 32-20 expander to get proper bell to start the cast bullet without shaving (I'd just use an M-die today)
- "sized" is the headspace for min "just close" case dimension (Hornady gauge)

[RayinNH]

Shooter error I don't think so. You posted 2 targets and you seem to be a fair enough shooter.
- Dirty rifle Possibly. Give it a good cleaning.
- Damaged crown Forget that for now. Go with the easy ones first.
- Jump (too short COAL) I've never shot that light a bullet in the Krag. Try seating it out further. Forget the crimp groove and load them singly into the rifle. They only need to be crimped if you're loading several in the rifle.
- Shaved lead when seating That's never a good thing. Until you get a chamfer tool you can use a larger drill bit (turn by hand) or even a pen knife to bevel the inside case neck. You only need to break the edge.
- Undersized bullets That's my first thought. I have 3 Krags and they all get .311 diameter bullets
- Too low velocity Probably not. Your charge of powder should put you in the 1700's range.

When I checked the bore when I bought the rifle the rifling was clear and sharply defined, so I don’t think I’m shooting a musket. The sights are also aftermarket Williams, so I don’t think it’s that either. As long as the sights aren't loose, you're fine. The sights might not be pointing at what the rifle is aiming at, but if the rifle is shooting fine, you should be getting a group. You can adjust the sights to hit a what you're aiming at later. This will change with bullet weight, powder charge, distance.

It is a new rifle to me, the sights are open rather than aperture, and the trigger is heavier than I’m used to in a rifle, so it’s probably user error to some extent. However, given my grouping with my AR I would think I could get all the rounds on a pie plate, at least.

I’m going to need a case trimmer and case chamfer/deburring tool before I load up the next batch, which might help with seating and any case related issues. I’ll also give the chamber/bore a good cleaning.

What do y’all think might be the cause (and the solution)?[/QUOTE]

[RayinNH]

I forgot to address case mouth bevel. 405grain mentioned a Lyman M die or Lee case bevel tool. For now you can get away with a pair of needle nose pliers to flare the case a bit.

[OrlonTheBrave]

Thanks all, for the advice and warm welcome!

Reloading .32 Long I found pretty easy; this is a bit more challenging (but hopefully eventually more rewarding). Sounds like I should:
1. Give the bore a proper cleaning.
2. Slug the bore. I’ll add some lead round balls to my Midway order.
3. Check the crown. I have q-tips I can use to check for burrs, which should be easy.
4. I flared the mouths using the expander die from my .32 Long set, but I guess not enough. I can try increasing the flare, and chamfer and deburr the case mouths to prevent lead shaving.
5. Acquire better bullets (if necessary, depending on bore diameter, jump to rifling, etc.). I don’t cast my own yet (I know, I know. But my girlfriend already has generously let me keep gunpowder in the house, and would kill me if I start melting lead in the kitchen of our little apartment. Maybe next year I can get away with it), and finding the right size/shape/weight for sale online has been difficult.

Anything major I’m missing?

I’m out of town for Thanksgiving and disappointed I can’t tinker with it till I get back, but I figure I can still do the planning while I’m away.

When I get back I’ll post some pictures of the rifle too. It’s pretty handsome for a sporter (and a good deal too).

[littlejack]

Don't get overwhelmed with the procedure. It may sound complicated, but it isn't. Just listen to the advice and suggestions from the old hands. There's moulds on flebay. I saw a single cavity Lyman 311284 just today, but there are others. I like the 311284 because it is a bore rider. That means the front section of the boolit will center the boolit when fired, and ride the lands going down the bore, while the driving bands will get engraved by the lands and spin the boolit. With any of the proper boolits, fix the cartridge overall length so the front of the bore riding section is engraved by the lands of the bore when chambered.

[Whole Bunches]

I cannot emphasize enough what others have said about slugging the bore. My M1898 Krag rifle has a beautiful bore, but gave "not good enough for me" results with my 30 caliber cast loads, even when sized to .311". Slugging the bore revealed a .303" bore diameter and a .313" groove diameter. Switching to use Lyman 314299 bullets (I use a .315" die to basically just lube them with no to the tiniest bit of sizing on the high points) (that I use for 303 Brit and 7.62x54 Russian, also sized with my .315" die), I get superb accuracy and no leading.

Note: I also tried a .314" sizing die, giving the same accuracy as with my .315" die, but prefer to simply use the .315" sizing die all the time.

[Adam Helmer]

Hello friends,

I’m new to reloading, having started this fall. I began with .32 S&W long, and once I got the hang of that I decided to try .30-40 Krag. However, I’ve had some issues, and could use your advice.

I cooked up 13 rounds this week of a mild load to get started. I had trouble finding bullets the right size and weight. The only 220 grain I could find were labelled 300Blk, so I went with a lighter lrnfp.

Acme .309 155 grain powder coated lrnfp
20.4 grains imr4227
2.674” oal

I headed out to the 50 yard range and warmed up with my AR-15 (left). I shoot irons, and for a warm-up I’m happy if I can get most of my shots on the sticker.

When I shot the Krag (right?), all 13 rounds fed and fired without a hitch, and the recoil impulse was consistent. However, the rounds were going all over the paper, and even missing it entirely. It looks like one might have even keyholed.


https://imgur.com/a/6CFcqhW

What do y’all think might be the cause? I figure it might be one or more of the below, but I am not an expert.
- Shooter error
- Dirty rifle
- Damaged crown
- Jump (too short COAL)
- Shaved lead when seating
- Undersized bullets
- Too low velocity

When I checked the bore when I bought the rifle the rifling was clear and sharply defined, so I don’t think I’m shooting a musket. The sights are also aftermarket Williams, so I don’t think it’s that either.

It is a new rifle to me, the sights are open rather than aperture, and the trigger is heavier than I’m used to in a rifle, so it’s probably user error to some extent. However, given my grouping with my AR I would think I could get all the rounds on a pie plate, at least.

I’m going to need a case trimmer and case chamfer/deburring tool before I load up the next batch, which might help with seating and any case related issues. I’ll also give the chamber/bore a good cleaning.

What do y’all think might be the cause (and the solution)?

Orlon,

Pardon my ignorance, but what sort of Krag are you loading for? I have both rifles and carbines and have many successful loads. I did not see what model Krag you are using.
Be well.

Adam

[OrlonTheBrave]

Good question, I should have described it better earlier. It began life in 1903 as a Springfield M1898 Krag rifle.

I find it surprising that there’s so much variation in bore size for these rifles. I wonder what the dimensions were of the army issue ammo, and whether troops were able to hit anything!

[405grain]

OrlonTheBrave: As other's have said, welcome to the site. When I suggested flaring the case mouths I should have been more concise. The case mouths only need to be flared just enough for about 1/2 of the height of the gas check to enter the mouth. There's no need to bell out the case mouth like a trumpet. Also, when new, brass can have sharp edges on the case mouth that might also shave lead. The answer to this is to use a chamfering tool to lightly remove the sharp edge (both inside and outside the case mouth). You only need to chamfer the case mouths once, unless you need to trim the necks back later - in which case you'll need to chamfer them again.

Something to remember is that when seating the bullet you don't want for the cartridge to go so far up into the seating die that the edge in the die that crimps the mouth of the case gets a chance to crimp that bell out of the mouth before the bullet is seated its the overall length. Don't give your reloading technique any chance to shave lead. I always (both pistol and rifle) do my seating and crimping as two separate operations.

If you slug your bore and discover that it's too large for the bullets that you've been casting you will have at least two options for dealing with this. First, powder coating can add up to .002" to a bullets diameter. The best powders that I've found for putting on a thick coat have been Smoke4320 signal blue, and Eastwood Hot Coat Ford light blue. (Smoke4320 is a vendor on this site. Look for his adds in the swapping & selling forum.) I use the Lyman #311284 bullet, powder coated and sized to .3125" to shoot in my 7.65x53 Mauser.

The second possible solution is to get a new mold in a larger size. Any bullet that was made for the 303 British, 7.7 Japanese, or 7.65 x53 will do. The most common bullet for that application is the Lyman #314299, but there are lots of choices from other mold manufacturers. Besides Lyman I have used molds from NOE and Saeco with good success. Best of luck with your Krag. I will forever be kicking myself in the butt for letting go of the 1898 Krag carbine that I had as a youngster.

[Thumbcocker]

I had one Krag that slugged. 316. You can use egg shaped fishing sinkers for slugs. Make sure they are lead and lightly lube the bore before slugging.

[pworley1]

Welcome. The 311284 works best for me.

[Mk42gunner]

Several members I respect have recommended going straight to a .313" sizing diameter for any Krag to try to fill the throat.

Worth a try.

Robert

[Shiloh]

I size the NOE 311299 at .312 for the Krag. Rings the gong for me. If I miss, it's my old eyes.

Shiloh

[OrlonTheBrave]

Hello friends,

I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving.

As promised, pictures!

https://imgur.com/a/WF7gGuK

I’ve ordered a Lee case trimming tool and accessories, an LE Wilson chamfer and deburring tool, and some soft .36 lead balls from Midway USA, which should arrive next week.

While I wait for those to arrive, I’ll work on partial resizing my fired brass. Looks like with a sharpie to assess, I can back out the sizing die. I thought about getting a washer but I only have the one rifle, so I likely won’t be doing much full length sizing now anyways.

If the .309 bullets I bought are undersized (which is seeming likely), are they something I can sell on here to other members? I won’t have much use for them otherwise.

[rintinglen]

I would bet a fair penny on your boolits being under sized.

"Fit is king" as Sundog used to say. Whenever I see scattered shots from cast, that is my first suspect. And while those undersized boolits are ricocheting down the bore, they'll be leaving splotches of lead that will screw up following shots even if they happen to be properly sized. The under-sized boolits quickly lead the bore and voila, a do-it-yourself scattergun. As soon as I saw you were using .309, sized boolits, that leapt to mind. IME, most Krags need at least a .311 boolit for best results, (most do better with .313-.314) and the long throats work best with 200-220 grain boolits like the 311-299, the 311-284 or the Accurate 31-220bg.

Good luck and welcome to the show. You'll learn more about casting here in a year than you will in 20 years stumbling along on your own. I'd been casting for over 30 years when I joined and I was absolutely blown away by the depth of knowledge to be found.