Ideal 457474 Mold

[7x57Hunter]

I picked up this nice old Ideal 457474 a little while ago…does anyone have experience with one? Planning on trying it in my 45-70. The little bit I could find out was that it was designed by W R Damant and was listed in the Ideal #39 handbook. Does anyone happen to have that book?

Thanks.

[7x57Hunter]

I cast up a few bullets tonight…they weigh just over 370gr. 0.270” meplat 0.90” long dropping at just over .460”

[jrmartin1964]

7x57Hunter,

Your No.457474 was listed only in Handbook No.39 (1953), with only the briefest of mention in the first Handbook of Cast Bullets (1958). Apparently, this was intended as a "double cast" design (note the 'dotted line' indication in the illustrations below). The nose, with a tapered tail piece, would be cast in a separate mould, of presumably a soft alloy. This nose casting would then be placed into a "full cavity" mould (as the one you have) and a harder alloy poured to make the casting complete. This, in theory, allowed the caster to "make your own soft-point". It was pointed out in a later handbook that this must have resulted in a very high rejection rate... placing a cooled nose casting into a mould, then attempting to pour the base section in behind it. Yikes!!

Anyway, below are images of the relevant info for No.457474 and the .45-70 cartridge from HB 39 and 1st HCB. Oddly, HB39 doesn't give loads for specific bullet numbers, but only for general bullet weights.

Handbook No.39:








Handbook of Cast Bullets:



Hope this helps you,
Jim

[7x57Hunter]

Thanks Jim! I only have the main mold…not the soft point…yes I can definitely see where that could lead to major problems trying to pour on top of a cold nose. I’m going to give this bullet a try anyway.

[longbow]

A little off topic but... you can still make soft nose bullets with that mould by usinjg two lead pots, one with soft lead and one with hard lead. I have made soft nose bullets using Lyman 457125 500 gr. bullet mould by pouring soft lead using a sized dipper to get a consistent length soft nose, then quickly pour the harder alloy on top. With large moulds I have had good success and perfect fusion. No so much with .30 cal. moulds.

Also, BruceB posted his method of making soft nose bullets:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...s-of-MAY-2009)

You may or may not be interested in soft nose bullets but a little info never hurts!

That looks like a nice boolit though it may not carry enough lube.

I hope you post range results. I'd be interested in your results.

Longbow

PS: just found this with pics https://castpics.net/subsite2/Classi...any%20Mold.pdf

[Mk42gunner]

Even as a one piece boolit it looks like it should be okay with smokeless powder to me. If you really want to go with a soft nose, the BruceB method isn't too hard to learn.

Robert

[7x57Hunter]

Yes, I would be loading smokeless with this….do you think it would tumble lube ok? (Never tried it) or do you typically need more lube grooves for tumbling?

[longbow]

That boolit design is an old one so I have to assume it worked with the iubes available at the time even though the lube grooves aren't very big. At worst you might get some leading so check after a few shots to see if any lead is building up. If yes, then stop shooting unless you don't mind scrubbing lead out of the bore. If no you are good to go. With smokeless powder you should be okay but I wouldn't expect that bullet to hold enough lube for BP use.

If you have problems with tumble lube you shouldn't with coventional lube. I'm sure Ideal wouldn't have marketed it if the design leaded bores.

Just my opinion.

Longbow

[7x57Hunter]

Well, it’s not much of a range report…I only had time to load and shoot off 5 this afternoon. I mainly wanted to see if there were issues with lube. I had TAC green lube in my lube sizer…I loaded up a starting load for my Marlin…should have been around 1500fps based on charts (didn’t set up a chrono). Just a very minor amount of lead streaks in the last 2” of the barrel. I couldn’t remember which alloy was in my lead pot…but pretty sure it was 16:1. It was hitting about 6” low (off my target) at 50 yards…that was compared to factory 1300fps ammo grouping was around 4-5” shooting kinda rushed offhand. I’ll load up some more and do a better assessment with a rest in the future.

[7x57Hunter]

Here’s a pic of them lubed…the .460” die just kissing the edges

[Mk42gunner]

You might try a thin tumble lube over the top of your lube, it may give just enough extra lube to prevent leading. Or try another lube entirely.

Ah ha, you say. Just what is the thinned tumble lube I am referring to? Sorry it is not straight Lee liquid alox. There are a couple of decently reported mixtures: 45-45-10, and BLL being the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

I have used BLL, but only for WC level loads in revolvers, no experience in rifles. I have not used the 45-45-10.

For what its worth, I have used FWFL by itself in rifles at approximately 1600 fps with complete satisfaction.

If you do get into making your own lubes, the garage is a good lace to do it to keep peace with the rest of the family. I'm single so I melted mine in the kitchen, but I did not use my food prep pans.

Good Luck,

Robert

[7x57Hunter]

Leading certainly wasn’t horrible…cleaned up in 8-9 tight patches with regular Hoppes…nothing drastic. Honestly I can’t remember if I cleaned it well after I last shot it…used HSM cowboy loads to get the brass and some of the leading could have been from that.

[7x57Hunter]

I loaded up 5 more and dropped the load a little…I might try these this afternoon.

[7x57Hunter]

Well…I fired off 2 an the leading was worse with the lighter load.

[7x57Hunter]

Good news is the lead was way softer and wiped right out with 2 patches…so the other stubborn hard lead must have been from the Cowboy ammo

[longbow]

What alloy are you using? If soft, a harder alloy might help.

The suggestion above from Mk42gunner to add a coat of tumble lube might help and certainly won't hurt.

You said the boolits cast at 0.460" but what is your groove diameter?

I used to load my Siamese Mauser right to Ruger #1 specs with plain base bullets with little trouble. I got a bit of leading near the muzzle so decided to add a .410 fiber wad under the bullet and that stopped the bit of leading I was getting. In my 1895 Marlin I loaded to max. 1895 specs with PB bullets and no leading at all. That was with the Lyman 457125 in the Siamese Mauser and the Lyman 457124 in the 1895. I mostly used ACWW. Both those carry more lube than your boolit though.

A card or fiber wad under the bullet... not pressed down onto the power, might help but reduce your powder charge a bit if you go this route, then work back up. A wad will increase pressure. The wad should be snug in the brass so it stays under the bullet. I'm sure this will be controversial, but it worked for me in the Siamese Mauser (so would slightly reducing the powder charge!).

It is possible that dacron filler will work too. That is a filler I haven't used much. Generally it is used to fill the air space with light loads of position sensitive powder but it can apparently help protect the base of the boolit as well. Larry Gibson has written extensively on this site about dacron filler.

Longbow

[Bazoo]

Beautifully cast bullets and loaded cartridges.

[7x57Hunter]

Well…I think I found my problem…the alloy I had in the pot was 25:1 that I was using for 44 special loads…I emptied it and got it filled with Lyman #2…thinking that will do the trick

[Bazoo]

7x57Hunter,

Your No.457474 was listed only in Handbook No.39 (1953), with only the briefest of mention in the first Handbook of Cast Bullets (1958). Apparently, this was intended as a "double cast" design (note the 'dotted line' indication in the illustrations below). The nose, with a tapered tail piece, would be cast in a separate mould, of presumably a soft alloy. This nose casting would then be placed into a "full cavity" mould (as the one you have) and a harder alloy poured to make the casting complete. This, in theory, allowed the caster to "make your own soft-point". It was pointed out in a later handbook that this must have resulted in a very high rejection rate... placing a cooled nose casting into a mould, then attempting to pour the base section in behind it. Yikes!!

Anyway, below are images of the relevant info for No.457474 and the .45-70 cartridge from HB 39 and 1st HCB. Oddly, HB39 doesn't give loads for specific bullet numbers, but only for general bullet weights.

Handbook No.39:








Handbook of Cast Bullets:



Hope this helps you,
Jim

Thank you for posting that information.

[Bazoo]

Does anyone know what alloy was suggested for the body of the 457474 specifically or the other double cast mould?