Turkish flake powder

[jss227]

I've been reducing my Turkish milsurp 8x57 to 40 grains. This leaves me anywhere from 5 to 9 grains from each round extra. Is there any way to use this with cast boolits, or even with my 7x57 with cast? Are there any modern comparable powders?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

This depends a bit on what results you want to get with the cast boolits. If it's 50 yd. accuracy I'd try 12-15 gr. of the salvaged powder. More than that, I'd do a slow build up adding a grain or two at a time. I've never seen any published loads for re-using the powder in other cartridges, but it's logical that if the full house jacketed 8x57mm loads are about standard velocities, then reduced loads that are comparable to other loads like Red Dot would work satisfactorily. The Turk ammo was loaded very inconsistently, and I did about the same thing you are doing with about 2k rounds, which was to pull the bullets, dump the powder, reload them with a consistent load, and reseat the bullets. You might consider just loading your 40 gr. into new Boxer primed brass with jacketed bullets of a comparable weight. It's been about 20 years since I did my project, and I'm pretty sure I used 42 gr., and that's what I did with my excess powder was to just make more of the same with reloadable brass.

[P Flados]

Quickload can back out useable "equivalent powder" info with good chrono data for the 8x57 loads, some effort at quantifying powder density, and full gun and reloading details.

With any milsurp powder, batch to batch differences can be huge. So using actual performance info is probably better than trying to find info about the typical performance of what someone thinks you might have.

[jss227]

Thanks guys.

[Larry Gibson]

The powder in Turk 8x57 milsurp is basically a standard Nobel powder that was used in numerous milsurp cartridges pre WWII. I also have used left over Turk powder from my own pull down. Pressure testing numerous lots of Turk and other such milsurp ammo I've determined the powder has a burn rate between 3031 and 4895. I've loaded hundreds cast bullet 8x57 rounds with the Turk powder. I've loaded 323470s, 323471s and a GB 326-195-fn (mostly this one simply because I have the 6 cavity mou8ld for it). With the 195 gr cast of COWW + 2% tin, GC'd and lubed I load 28 gr, use a dacron filler in formed case, commercial cases and Turk cases with the original Berdan primers. Velocity rounds 1850 +/- fps and accuracy is always excellent.

[dtknowles]

When I pull down powder to reduce the charge I just load it in the same cartridge with a similar bullet. 200 rounds with a 40 gr charge reduced to 35 gr. leaves you with 1000 gr. of excess powder that will fill 25 reloads. I have no concerns dropping charges 10 percent and using the excess powder to load 10 percent more ammo.

I don't know what is up with Turk ammo but I had some in 30-06 and it kicked like hell, no fun to shoot, I broke it down and down loaded it and loaded excess powder other 30-06 brass but I used jacket bullets. I still have hundreds of rounds of that stuff in case I get bored, I did break a bullet puller processing that stuff. I don't often use slow powders with cast bullets so not much help there.
TEK

[Larry Gibson]

There is/was nothing "up with Turk ammo" other than it is/was loaded to German milsurp specifications. That means it will push the 154 gr +/- FMJ at 2800 - 2900+ fps depending on barrel length. The cases will many times give sticky extraction and bolt opening sometimes with neck splitting also. This is simply because the cases were not annealed properly, if at all. I have pressure tested many lots of the Turk ammo and found the pressures consistent with German specifications. I also have pulled the bullets and powder and loaded them into W-W cases. Those gave the same level of pressure and velocities.

Yes, there is recoil but if one wants to dance one must pay the band.....

[GONRA]

Over the decades, GONRA has done the same as Der Gebirgsjager 's
advice with other mililtary surplus ammo and had good results.
Don't OVERTHINK this POWDER stuff and pretend its something it isn't! !!
DON'T BLOW YER HEADS OFF !

[Jungle Dave]

Being that it is similar in burn to 3031 and 4895, I've always wanted to work up some loads with it for 1250fps or black powder velocities with a Lee 405HB in .45-70 for a cape gun I have. I've just never done it. I've got two crates of both Turk and Yugo still sitting here from years ago. I don't have an 8x57 to shoot it in anymore, except for one on a Chang Kai Shek stock that has such a wicked punch that I'd only lend it to someone I don't like very well. I might salvage the lead from the bullets as well. I wish they still made round nose softs and solids like they used to with cupro-nickel jackets, but I can't use full-patch spitzers for anything at all, and I hope the day never comes when they actually become useful.

[gwozdz]

I've been reducing my Turkish milsurp 8x57 to 40 grains. This leaves me anywhere from 5 to 9 grains from each round extra. Is there any way to use this with cast boolits, or even with my 7x57 with cast? Are there any modern comparable powders?

I would like to reduce the 1000 or so Turkish rounds I have. Can you tell me what year was stamped on the cases you reduced down to 40 grains?

[TurnipEaterDown]

I picked up some Russian Surplus Flake powder some 30 months ago, and upon pull down of surplus Turk 8x57 ammo from the 50s, the appearance of the 2 powders was identical, and charge weights in an 8x57 for chronograph velocities were similar. Quite similar for surplus lots supposedly produced decades apart in different countries.

I successfully loaded the Russian surplus fairly low, and it shot well. Fantastic, no, well, yes. The powder was FSP 749, and I have posted a good amount of my data for that powder in the surplus powder sub forum. Use any 'home brew' data at your own risk w/ a good dash of self judgement.

Being a Flake w/ burn like 3031, I suspect that the FSP 749 may well have a deterrent coating. There is a lot more surface area on a flake than a cylinder. To achieve a similar burn progression a deterrent would often be called for. Improvement may be achieved over what I experienced by using a peppy primer.

These comments are made to offer some guidance on the surplus pull down flake, not to get someone to seek out this FSP powder.

[Rockindaddy]

Have around 20K rounds of 7.65 Argentine ammo. I open each case and test a few rounds out of my 1909 Argentine Mauser rifle. The hang fires and duds that come out of a particular case get marked as component ammo. This Argentine ammo also has the square flake powder. Works good for loading 303 British. Pull the bullet and dump the powder into a primed case and seat the Argentine bullet. Works good in my old Savage 1915 Lewis gun. The old girl just chatters away. Sold a pile of this dud ammo here on the Boolit site. Have not tried to load this square flake powder in 45-70 or 30-06 ammo. I did try loading it in some once fired 7.62 x 54 R commercial cases and used the pulled bullet. It worked good. Wonder how this powder would work in reduced loads??? Maybe driving cast boolits.

[beemer]

I had a couple hundred rounds of Turk 8mm, broke it down. I tried 25-26 grains in a Russian and a 200 grain bullet, worked great.

dtknowles, you mentioned breaking a bullet puller. I was breaking down some Bulgarian 8mm, nothing seemed to work. Broke an inertia puller and a collet wouldn't hold. I had a piece of steel that had a hole that the bullet would just slip fit in. A couple of sideways taps with a plastic hammer broke the seal and the collet pulled it out easily. The ammo was 60's military steel cases and gave a lot of hang fires but the extruded powder looked good. The cases were berdan primed but had only one flash hole on one side. I started low and ended up going a half grain over the original load to get the R-P 8mm cases to seal the chamber, stop blow by and sooty cases. The R-P cases did seem to have a little more powder capacity. The dang stuff shoots 2 moa at 100 with my scoped M48.

[gwozdz]

I have found that to help in pulling military bullets, I would first seat the bullets a hair deeper to break the seal and pulling was much easier from that point on.

[beemer]

I have found that to help in pulling military bullets, I would first seat the bullets a hair deeper to break the seal and pulling was much easier from that point on.

I tried that, it usually works but the Bulgarian 8 mm FMJ started tapering at the crimp and the collet wouldn't hold.

[jss227]

I would like to reduce the 1000 or so Turkish rounds I have. Can you tell me what year was stamped on the cases you reduced down to 40 grains?

From 38 thru 42 I believe. I am on a batch of 39's now. I segregate by year. All have been pretty inconsistent on powder charges.

[jss227]

I have found that to help in pulling military bullets, I would first seat the bullets a hair deeper to break the seal and pulling was much easier from that point on.

For really tough ones that my collet puller won't budge, I use a cheap pair of wire strippers (the long ones with the half rounds on the end and 6,8, and 10-32 shears), run the ram up and grip the bullet. Pull down and they pop right free. Very little if any damage.

[10x]

For really tough ones that my collet puller won't budge, I use a cheap pair of wire strippers (the long ones with the half rounds on the end and 6,8, and 10-32 shears), run the ram up and grip the bullet. Pull down and they pop right free. Very little if any damage.

I have found that pushing the bullet into the case 0.005" will break the sealing compound on milsurp ammo then pulling the bullet is much easier.

[Montanaguy]

Turkish 8x57 ammo fired in my stock 1938 Turk with iron sights produced some interesting data for you fellow Turk shooters. The ammo came in the 70 rnd. bandoleers with 154 gr. bullets and 47.5 gr. of flake powder.

I pulled bullets and reloaded the cases with 35, 37, 39, 41, 43, and 45 gr. of the flake powder. I fired 5 rounds of each, as well as 5 rounds of full-power loads (47.5 gr.) and chronographed them. I shot from the bench at targets 50 yards away on a cold and windy day at targets with 1 inch bulls using a 6 o’clock hold.

Here are the velocities (rounded to nearest 10’) and the size and locations of the groups in relation to the bull (all using the same hold).

Powder charge Velocity Group size Location

47.5 2980 1.0” 3.5” low center
45 2770 1.75” 1.0” low .5” left
43 2700 1.75” .5” high 1.0” left
41 2610 1.50” 1.5” high 2.0” left
39 2510 1.50” 3.0” high 1.5” left
37 2410 2.00” 4.5” high 2.5” left
35 2300 .75” 5.5” high 4.7” left

[majorsideburns]

Turkish 8x57 ammo fired in my stock 1938 Turk with iron sights produced some interesting data for you fellow Turk shooters. The ammo came in the 70 rnd. bandoleers with 154 gr. bullets and 47.5 gr. of flake powder.

I pulled bullets and reloaded the cases with 35, 37, 39, 41, 43, and 45 gr. of the flake powder. I fired 5 rounds of each, as well as 5 rounds of full-power loads (47.5 gr.) and chronographed them. I shot from the bench at targets 50 yards away on a cold and windy day at targets with 1 inch bulls using a 6 o’clock hold.

Here are the velocities (rounded to nearest 10’) and the size and locations of the groups in relation to the bull (all using the same hold).

Powder charge Velocity Group size Location

47.5 2980 1.0” 3.5” low center
45 2770 1.75” 1.0” low .5” left
43 2700 1.75” .5” high 1.0” left
41 2610 1.50” 1.5” high 2.0” left
39 2510 1.50” 3.0” high 1.5” left
37 2410 2.00” 4.5” high 2.5” left
35 2300 .75” 5.5” high 4.7” left

Thank you for sharing, this is very interesting indeed. So if I am reading your chart correctly, you had the best groupings with the lowest, and also highest charges? Did you keep the OAL and seating depths the same for all charge weights?