Black powder cartridge load advice sought

[gunnie]

G'day folks,

I'm new to reloading black powder cartridges and I'm hoping that I can tap into the collective for some advice on relaoding black powder in several cartridges. Both the wife & I are looking to venture into Black Powder / Frontier Cartridge for Single Action competition here in Australia.
As such I'm looking to reload black in these cartridges: 32H&R mag, 38Spl, 44-40 and 12ga.
I've had a few guys advice against using a card wad cut out of cereal pack. Is this a thing or not? A mate who runs BP loads in his 44-40, uses a card wad pushed down on to of the powder, then a qty of his homemade lube before seating a cast 200gn projo on top. He hasn't had any issues with using a wad and he does so to seperate the lube from the powder and prevent any issues with contamination of powder. Especially here in our hot summer weather.

The loads that I was considering are:

44-40 - 205gn powder coated castRNFP sized to .427", Starline brass, Federal Large pistol primer. Powder is Wano Precision PPPg and using the Lee powder thrower twin disk unit on the turret press, with the 0.76 hole in both disks, it throws a charge of approx 22gns. I've made up a few test loads with the card wad pressed down on top of the powder, then a very healthy wad of lube, then the projo seated. From basic measuring of base of bullet to top of wad, there would be little to no air gap once the lube is squeezed in to fill the void. What is the collective opinion on this loading??

38Spl - 135gn powder coated cast, sized to .358" RNFP. Various brass, though mainly USA and Winchester. Federal small pistol primers. Wano Precision PPPg black powder, .7cc Lee powder scoop which equates to about 9.5gns. same process as the 44-40 loads.

32H&R magnum - Starline brass, cast powder coated 105gn projo. Wano Precision PPPg powder, Lee powder scoop 0.5cc. Winchester Smal pistol primer.

12ga - Winchester Ultra-lite AA hulls and wads to suit. 7/8th Oz of No7 shot. Winchester Shotshell primers. From memory it's a 1.3cc Lee powder scoop of Wano FFg powder.

Would appreciate the advice, information of the collective black powder cartridge reloaders. Thanks in advance.

Gunnie

[indian joe]

G'day folks,

I'm new to reloading black powder cartridges and I'm hoping that I can tap into the collective for some advice on relaoding black powder in several cartridges. Both the wife & I are looking to venture into Black Powder / Frontier Cartridge for Single Action competition here in Australia.
As such I'm looking to reload black in these cartridges: 32H&R mag, 38Spl, 44-40 and 12ga.
I've had a few guys advice against using a card wad cut out of cereal pack. Is this a thing or not? A mate who runs BP loads in his 44-40, uses a card wad pushed down on to of the powder, then a qty of his homemade lube before seating a cast 200gn projo on top. He hasn't had any issues with using a wad and he does so to seperate the lube from the powder and prevent any issues with contamination of powder. Especially here in our hot summer weather.

The loads that I was considering are:

44-40 - 205gn powder coated castRNFP sized to .427", Starline brass, Federal Large pistol primer. Powder is Wano Precision PPPg and using the Lee powder thrower twin disk unit on the turret press, with the 0.76 hole in both disks, it throws a charge of approx 22gns. I've made up a few test loads with the card wad pressed down on top of the powder, then a very healthy wad of lube, then the projo seated. From basic measuring of base of bullet to top of wad, there would be little to no air gap once the lube is squeezed in to fill the void. What is the collective opinion on this loading??

38Spl - 135gn powder coated cast, sized to .358" RNFP. Various brass, though mainly USA and Winchester. Federal small pistol primers. Wano Precision PPPg black powder, .7cc Lee powder scoop which equates to about 9.5gns. same process as the 44-40 loads.

32H&R magnum - Starline brass, cast powder coated 105gn projo. Wano Precision PPPg powder, Lee powder scoop 0.5cc. Winchester Smal pistol primer.

12ga - Winchester Ultra-lite AA hulls and wads to suit. 7/8th Oz of No7 shot. Winchester Shotshell primers. From memory it's a 1.3cc Lee powder scoop of Wano FFg powder.

Would appreciate the advice, information of the collective black powder cartridge reloaders. Thanks in advance.

Gunnie

You are doing things the hard way I reckon - it will work but these loads are time consuming, messy, PITA.

first
get some molds that make a boolit with decent lube grooves - for the 44/40 the RCBS cowboy mold works good, -38 sp LEE make a couple molds 125 grain Fp or the 158 Grain FP - forget the powder coat - at best it does nothing for blackpowder - if you buying cast boolits should be able to get them bare if you order ahead

you should be able to run these pistol size rounds simple ---- a case full of blackpowder and a grease lubed boolit on top. If you need to put lube under the boolit all that is telling is you dont have enough lube ON the boolit.

You will get a lot of conflicting advice - blackpowder shooters are like that - just think about what you are doing and keep things simple

A juice box wad under the boolit might improve accuracy some but I have not found that to be the case - I dont load grease down in the case it goes on the boolit where it belongs - and if I get fouling problems I go look for a better boolit design.

44/40 ...........load 35 - 36 grains of FFFg with a grease lubed RCBS cowboy boolit on top

you want a little compression on the powder so the powder column needs to be 1/16" to 1/8" above where the boolit base will be

are you using plastic wads or card wads in the shotgun ? plastic is a no go in some blackpowder comps but the SASS proly dont matter

[country gent]

Sir. If you are planning on true black powder loads then the powder coat m not be the best option as the lube also keeps the fouling soft.
A good bullet that caries plenty of lube. Use a good lube SPG or other for black powder. I cast these from 20-1 softer than smokeless bullets are normally
a good wad to protect the bullet base
enough 2 f black powder to fill case starting with no compression no airspace. work up from here adding powder and compression in 1/2 grain increments. If you can watch Standard deviation and extreme spreads along with velocity. Also watch the levels of fouling. As compression goes up spreads goes down and fouling drops, you will find a good load quickly.

[Wayne Smith]

One, I use compression to load BP- can't do that with grease under the boolit very well. I load 44-40 with a 200gr Big Lube boolit with 38gr FFG compressed. No lube but what is on the boolit and no card under.

[gunnie]

Thanks for the response gents.
I powdercoat as it has a twofold purpose; reduce lead exposure & helps in lubrication of the projectile in the bore.
Granted, I do understand the need for further lubrication to help in keeping the fouling 'soft' or manageable. I can always run the powdercoated projo's thru a lube-sizer or tumble lube them before use. More of a good thing I'm thinking.
As these loads are only for Single Action and not a pure accuracy need, as long at the round will shoot to rough point of aim, all is well surely?

A good mate has been running the same 44-40 BP load for the past 3-4yrs without any issue in both his Uberti 1873 & Ruger Vaquero's. Hence my consideration for it as a start. I agree, there is scope for experimentation as required here.

Where the pure science of BP loads will be needed is when I begin loading for my Perdersoli "Boss Gun' 45-70. Here I'm certainly going to need to delve deeper.

That said, I will certainly explore increasing the charge weights to that bullet seating depth point in the cases.

Thanks again for your advice, greatly appreciated.

[indian joe]

Thanks for the response gents.
I powdercoat as it has a twofold purpose; reduce lead exposure & helps in lubrication of the projectile in the bore.
Granted, I do understand the need for further lubrication to help in keeping the fouling 'soft' or manageable. I can always run the powdercoated projo's thru a lube-sizer or tumble lube them before use. More of a good thing I'm thinking.
As these loads are only for Single Action and not a pure accuracy need, as long at the round will shoot to rough point of aim, all is well surely?

A good mate has been running the same 44-40 BP load for the past 3-4yrs without any issue in both his Uberti 1873 & Ruger Vaquero's. Hence my consideration for it as a start. I agree, there is scope for experimentation as required here.

Where the pure science of BP loads will be needed is when I begin loading for my Perdersoli "Boss Gun' 45-70. Here I'm certainly going to need to delve deeper.

That said, I will certainly explore increasing the charge weights to that bullet seating depth point in the cases.

Thanks again for your advice, greatly appreciated.

Problem with powder coating in blackpowder loads is you use up some of your lube groove space on the boolit - half filling it with lipstick/plastic (whatever that gunk is) if you are doin this (PCing) yourself I would cease and desist immediately. My son is using black pc boolits in a Spencer 45 colt - didnt have a mold so he bought prelubed cast for it - we pan lube with proper BP lube over top and it works ok (seems to) .
Your mate is using the overpowder wad to stop the lube grease bleeding into the powder - if ya doin that the trick is to compress the powder+ wad then add the grease and boolit without further compression. But again - get a decent boolit and all that foolery goes away. The "Big Lube" design is pretty radical but they work and were invented by a guy shoots your style of match.

[John in PA]

Quick note: .427" is proper diameter (usually) for a vintage .44-40,, but the modern Italian repros use .429" groove diameters in their barrels. With revolvers, size bullet to the diameter of the chamber mouth, and the forcing cone will adjust diameter if it's a hair oversize.

[gunnie]

Cheers John.
I've run .430" in my 1907 Mod92/56 with a moderate load of TrailBoss.
The .427" Accurate Moulds I make work well thru my Rossi Puma Mod92. Once I get out back from a mate I've lent it to, I plan on testing them as well as the 205gners.

[firefly1957]

I have had great luck with black powder in rifle and shotgun ,pistol not so much never did get any accuracy . Those loads were in a Ruger Security 6 in S.S. . I tried over powder wad lube and without the 158 grain round nose bullet was always lubed well .

Over powder wads should be thicker than cereal box cardboard about two tenths of an inch or 5mm down there . The thickness along with a tight fit allows the powder to stay compressed better with or without a lube "Cookie" over wad. Lube that softens black powder fouling in the bore is very important also.

My one and very good black powder shotshell load was 12 ga. 89 grains FFG .2" over powder wad 40 pounds pressure 2 3/8" thick 3/4" round felt wads the wads were rolled in hot beeswax for lube then 1 1/8 oz shot . The shot had a thin cardwad over the shot 3/4" round from a tea box then was roll crimped . I fired 25 loads to see how they fouled and patterned from a old Stevens Model 315 double barrel . The bore was the same after shot one and shot 25 and the pattern was about as even . This gun has very tightly choked barrels sheels were paper and I lost about half of them do to roll crimp tearing off .

I have never powder coated a bullet in black powder cartridge's but did a bunch of Lee 440 gr. .58 caliber R.E.A.L. bullets the bullets where lubed also but for some reason they caused terrible leading in my bore . In this case it may have been that they just stripped in the rifling but I really have not figured it out as I also changed lube at same time . Workup loads were from 80-110 grains with lead bullet (non coated) and some commercial revolver grease I had great accuracy and velocity was better then I expected - powder was Swiss 1 1/2 FG. Then I went to the range for some 100 yard shooting the powder measure slipped to 120 grains from 110 grs. And I lubed powder coated bullets with 50/50 bees wax / olive oil lube. First two shots were very close third shot was lost, fourth with the ground at 75 yards . I looked at my bore and it looked like a smooth bore there was so much lead! It took days and mercury to clean my bore out! Later I found the lost shot it hit the post 30 inches left of other two shots sideways and did a lot of damage to the post.
This gun is a Kodiak double rifle with 1-48 twist rifling , I have since tried it and no matter what the lee bullet shoots poorly but patched round ball does well . The bore did get some small pits from that led fouling not cleaning out well and sitting with lead removers overnight . It ended up taking me a week or so to get the bore cleaned up!

[gunnie]

Folks, thought I'd give a bit of an update.
I know a few have no doubt shaken their heads, thinking this Aussie is not doing things right. Well, I did consider the advice provided and where thought suitable to my use was implemented. But basically I run with what is initially outlined.
The weekend just past was our Xmas end of year comp. I run 120 rounds of my 44-40 BP loads. A similar amount of 32H&R & 38Spl BP loads for the wife's firearms.
All worked perfectly, no issues, no barrel damage, no powder coating stripped leaving residue in the barrel, nothing to worry about.
I see reloading as a continual experimentation & whilst 'tried & proven' holds credibility, there is nothing wrong with pushing processes to explore any and all options.
If anything, I'll play around with my 44 loads a little. Certainly not an increase but possibly a reduction. Looking forward to playing around a bit more.
Apologies to the BP die-hards as what I'm doing is no doubt pure heresy! Oh well, such is life!!

[MSGuy]

As a fellow CAS shooter and boolit caster I think I understand what you’re trying to do. Here are a couple of my thoughts on what you and others have posted. As you know the purpose of the wad in BPCR is to separate the powder from the boolit, if you add lube under your boolit you’re going to find out real quick that you’ve got problems, especially if the loaded cartridge sits for weeks or months. As said by others powder coating BPCR boolits is not needed and it takes up room in the grease grooves, if you’re concerned about handling lead wear gloves. A .44-40 case was made to hold 40 grains of powder, if you’re going to significantly under charge you’ll need to add a filler between the boolit and the card. A small air space between bullet and powder is ok, a large gap should be avoided. Remember you’re replicating loading the way it was done in the 1800’s and most times they got it right for what they using, trying to “modernize” often leads to either more work or points of failure. In other words keep it simple, back then they didn’t have all the fancy chemicals that we do today, they used lube made from what was available, bullets made with pure lead, and often reloaded using simple hand tools.

In your shotgun you don’t need any lube. Why? Because there are no lands or grooves in a shotgun barrel. You didn’t say how you’re loading your shells are you using plastic or fiber wads? Plastic wads will give you a better pattern, the downside is all the melted plastic in the barrel. On my 12ga loads I use plastic and for cleanup I use Windex with Vinegar.

Getting into BPCR for long range is a totally different animal and requires a different level of perfection to get consistent long range shots.

[gunnie]

MSguy, appreciate your input mate. I certainly understand the criticality of load density, case void etc.what I've found with my 44 loads is that there is approximately a 3-4mm gap between the top of the wad & the base of the projo. This space is filled with a decent qty of lube.
Regards the issue of lube affecting powder, I don't reload black loads until the week of the shoot. So rounds wouldn't be assembled for more than 7days. All my ammo is stored in temp controlled storage. With our hot summers, the ammo is carried in an esky (cooler) and out of the sun/heat.
Re the 12ga ammo, yes I run plastic wads in Win AA hulls with Win primers. Regards the plastic bore fouling I use Ballistol/water mix & let soak for 10min. Then run a bore snake thru followed by a other soak in moose milk. I'm looking at trying roll crimping to see if that works OK for BP loads.

[freakonaleash]

I always roll crimped my shotgun loads when I was shooting plastic or paper shells. I eventually went to brass.