Trading Silver/Gold In A Broken Economy

[kaiser]

I think diesel for a truck or car was mentioned of things to save - I agreed. It stores at least 10 times longer than regular gas; and cooking oil, or rendered animal fat can be used in its place (if kept from "gelling" during cold weather). I also agree that land will be more valuable than gold, but you will need lots of bullets to secure it if you live near a big city!

[Lloyd Smale]

And on the other side of the coin (Pun intended); that land that one purchased will be subject to an annual County/Municipal/State Tax or variety of Taxes depending on location. Additionally, most pieces of land require maintenance, even if it is only periodic road maintenance to allow access to the property. If one leaves that "Wealth" to the next generation or other loved ones, once again depending on County/Municipal/State/Federal Law; there Tax man arrives and strips at least a portion of that wealth from those it is left to (Many Family Farms lost when passed to next generation and Tax Man wants his share but the family does not have $$ to pay and have to Borrow or sell to resolve).

Whereas most Precious metal is fairly small and easy to store and relocate. If one were to choose to do so; it remains "Unknown" by any but those the owner chooses to disclose to - including being passed to next generations. The Tax Man and the Governments may frown on it - but then again whey can only act on what they have records of or have direct knowledge of.

For full open disclosure. I have both land and a limited amount of Gold/Silver. My land/property is 1/2 revenue generation; the rest costs me annually due to taxes.

shtf senerio when the government fails there's no one to collect taxes and as a michigan resident thats a 100% disabled vet i dont have to pay property tax and if i die it wont be taxed till the wife dies too. then it will be left to 4 nephews that can split the taxes. i believe when you sell gold you have to pay capital gain tax. unless your the hunter biden type that cheats on his fair share of taxes and puts that burden on the rest of us tax payers. seems to me its around 30 percent same as what you would if i sold my camp. difference is most buy gold and hope it goes up then sell it. my property will never be sold. will even says it cant be sold by the nephews unless all 4 agree and they all use it more then i do and wouldnt think of selling it. by the way you just told the world you have gold. are you going to cough up the location when there's a knife at your wifes throat????? if i had gold i sure wouldnt tell the internet

[hoodat]

This thread certainly got more response than I expected when I started it. Also seems to be some pretty strong opinions concerning "for vs against" purchasing and owning precious metals as a hedge against hard times. I guess I come down on the side that says that it couldn't hurt. I think that gold and silver could be considered a "hard asset" that will still have value even if our cash becomes worthless.

I think we all know just how much our actual dollars are worth at this point when our collective debt is so high that the country will likely never recover from it without some bizarre form of national bankruptcy.

I think that when the shysters that run the show, (and I don't mean Trump or Biden) decide to make their move, there will be a lot of gnashing of teeth, and tearing of hair, and little we can do about it. Our 401-k's, bank accounts, VA Benefits, Social Security (retirement and disability) pensions of every type, -- virtually all of our collective wealth will be converted into the "New Improved" digital dollar. The folks who will like this the most will be the folks who have the least, because they're gonna get a share of wealth from those who have the most. This actually is already happening in case ya haven't noticed.

When this or whatever version of it happens, I think that having some hard assets like gold, silver, guns, ammo, and many others will be a good thing -- at least where I live. jd

[kerplode]

i believe when you sell gold you have to pay capital gain tax.

This is correct. Current US tax code treats bullion as an "alternative investment" and it is subject to capital gains taxation. Short term gains (held < 1yr) are taxed at your nominal income rate. Long term gains (held > 1yr) are taxed at 28% regardless of your bracket. This is because the IRS further classifies bullion as a "collectable" -> For collectables, capital gains are always taxed at the maximum rate and claiming capital losses is generally excluded.

This, coupled with the buy/sell spreads and possible sales tax on the purchase, makes bullion a difficult investment to come out ahead on. If you buy at 5% over spot plus 8% sales taxes, then sell at 3% under spot and possibly pay 28% on any gains, there has to be a big change in valuation to put this equation in the green...Your holding period needs to essentially be infinite.

When this or whatever version of it happens, I think that having some hard assets like gold, silver, guns, ammo, and many others will be a good thing -- at least where I live. jd

Agreed...Hard assets are definitely an asset in hard times.

[cabezaverde]

I have always thought booze, cigarettes, and feminine hygiene products.

[MUSTANG]

When SHTF Property Rights are meaningless and the value of Precious metals slides down the scale towards lead.

I wonder how many commenting have seen TRUE POVERTY and Authoritarian Governments in total control?

[rancher1913]

When SHTF Property Rights are meaningless and the value of Precious metals slides down the scale towards lead.

I wonder how many commenting have seen TRUE POVERTY and Authoritarian Governments in total control?

probably none of us first hand but they make these things called books and you can use them to study history if your so inclined

[john.k]

In those history books ,you might see that last time SHTF for a many people ,the Democrat s made it illegal to own gold beyond a bit of jewellery ,and you would have to sell all your gold to the feds for a couple of dollars an ounce.

[MUSTANG]

I find it strange that many see "The way I am doing it" as the only solution. Precious Metals, or Land, or Beans & Rice, or....

My solution has always been "All of the Above". Just for giggles - consider I was clueless and did not know we grew up poor - didn't see the difference until I went into the USMC. Growing up it's just how it was for the extended Family relatives and people we knew. No one I/we went hungry although meals were plain fare quite often; but we did not even have a TV until 1967 - although several relatives did.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya the truth is its all a roll of the dice and its why at my age my main concern with money isnt next year its today. i really dont care what my money will buy 10 or 20 years from now when someone else is spending it

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I find it strange that many see "The way I am doing it" as the only solution. Precious Metals, or Land, or Beans & Rice, or.... My solution has always been "All of the Above".

Here lies the best solution, I think. But you can be assured that you will always have overlooked something.

DG

[rockrat]

Read a science fiction book a long time ago where part of a state was moved to an alternate reality. It opened with a guy hunting with 75 yr old 22 lr ammo (that cost a lot) and he ended up shooting a deer (which he indicated were a rarity) and trading part of it for other things. The fellow he traded with was the wealthiest guy around and made his fortune with a mill and a distillery/brewery. He would charge people part of their crop, to grind it to meal/flour, then use that to make whisky and beer.
So, gold or silver ( I would lean towards silver) and whisky, along with ammo and diesel/propane and your food and water (and filtering systems) and secure storage.

[rancher1913]

In those history books ,you might see that last time SHTF for a many people ,the Democrat s made it illegal to own gold beyond a bit of jewellery ,and you would have to sell all your gold to the feds for a couple of dollars an ounce.

only the fools turned it in, most hid it and used it in the black market. kind of like not if but when they ban guns, will you turn yours in or hide them until needed.

[hoodat]

If they tell us we gotta turn in our gold and guns, we've got to do it don't we??
'
'

[.429&H110]

I mis-spent some years in the oily trade, serving propane, gasoline, diesel dispensers, fuel tanks, trucks, burners, and I must say that gasoline especially the alcohol blends do not store well. If you put a dose of Stabil in good gasoline, keep it corked and cool, I have used gasoline stashes a year old, but I never tried for longer than that, I suppose a lot would depend on the engine you are trying to start.
Kerosene, number 2 fuel and diesel on the other hand, with an algecide, like "Diesel-pep" do seem to store forever.
Parafin blocks will actually store forever for sure.

Any steel tank that has water on the bottom, and they all do, will rust through. Eventually is a long time, the water will breed a slime that lives in the dark that eats oil, making sludge. #2 oil comes pre-sludged, I recommend a Garber cartridge on a Smart filter ahead of any oil pump because the traditional cellulose filters just are not fine enough. A cellulose filter will pass water, a spin-on will not.

A lot of people do not understand that without the grid, there are no pumps.

Diesel-Pep is the Alaskan's friend, disperses moisture and lowers the pour point.

[35 Rem]

I mis-spent some years in the oily trade, serving propane, gasoline, diesel dispensers, fuel tanks, trucks, burners, and I must say that gasoline especially the alcohol blends do not store well. If you put a dose of Stabil in good gasoline, keep it corked and cool, I have used gasoline stashes a year old, but I never tried for longer than that, I suppose a lot would depend on the engine you are trying to start.
Kerosene, number 2 fuel and diesel on the other hand, with an algecide, like "Diesel-pep" do seem to store forever.
Parafin blocks will actually store forever for sure.

Any steel tank that has water on the bottom, and they all do, will rust through. Eventually is a long time, the water will breed a slime that lives in the dark that eats oil, making sludge. #2 oil comes pre-sludged, I recommend a Garber cartridge on a Smart filter ahead of any oil pump because the traditional cellulose filters just are not fine enough. A cellulose filter will pass water, a spin-on will not.

A lot of people do not understand that without the grid, there are no pumps.

Diesel-Pep is the Alaskan's friend, disperses moisture and lowers the pour point.

This is a "one data point" result that I am in no way saying is repeatable but it did happen. I have a 1973 Pontiac Grand Am with a 455 engine that sits outside by my detached garage. It has sat 12 years without being started with a tank full of gas treated with Stabil. I got inspired to do something with it a few months ago and after taking the plugs out to squirt some oil into the cylinders, the darned thing cranked and ran. Yes, with 12-year-old gas in the tank. I ran it about 20 minutes. Of course, it ran rough and smoked but it gradually got better. I would have bet money that it would NOT run but glad I didn't. So, gas can be stored longer than Stabil claims on their bottles but how much is subject to debate. For the purposes of this discussion, I think you could feel fairly confident that gas could be kept for 5 years for use in something like a generator or tiller to work a garden. When it comes to cars, trucks or other vehicles used for transportation, few people have the means to store enough gas to last long enough to worry about storage life. The fuel will be consumed long before it goes bad.

[.429&H110]

Pipe fitting is a fun job, when you are young, but I got old.
Long ago you could buy #2 (nothing reeks worse than high sulfur #2) when the price was down at a cash discount. I doubt if there are any deals any more. People would hire me to install a pair of 330 gallon tanks, tanks made to fit through a door. 660 was the maximum indoor storage without a fire wall. So some people built a bunker and I happily put four of the heavy things in a spillproof contained concrete cellar hole. They poured an underground stinky shed outside the foundation, very clever. 1000 gallons would get most Yankees through to when oil was cheap again. I remember when #2 passed $1.00 a gallon, and Yankees refused to buy it, they burned wood that winter.
Other people had different ideas, but for me each 330 (or 275) had it own whistle and fill
two tanks max teed to a two inch vent: four 1.25" fills; two 2" vents. There will be no leaks.
Once upon a time, very commonly two tanks were piped in series, one fill, one vent. The modern truck's pumps could and did easily split the end weld, loosing a couple hundred gallons of stinking oil into the cellar. I was spill response, strong stomach, strong back.
Once upon a time, people buried 1000 gallon single wall tanks in their front yards, a disaster waiting to happen. Fairbanks has a generation of buried single wall 1000 gallon tanks, they were good tanks, tarred and buried in sand. They corrode from the inside out, from the sulfury bacterial sludge. They are all gonna leak, someday.
The last two tanks I buried were a pair of 10,000 gallon double wall with fill containment and intersticial alarms, cost most of $100k. The tank insurance will pay for removal in 20 years. If you want to burn 30 gallons an hour, you need a lot of 30 gallonses.
Truck would bring 9300 gallons per trip, $26,000?

[snowwolfe]

If I was forced to pick two items for a SHTF situation it would be 9mm ammo and 9mm Glocks.
However, I been hearing of this SHTF stuff since the middle 1960’s and it hasn’t happened yet. I no longer pay attention to it and we just live our lives.

[Lloyd Smale]

gas with stabil will last 2 years if used in 4 stroke motor. 2 strokes are more finiky and its about a year for them. both might start 5 years from now but your octane level will be so low that you will have detonation that will destroy your motor when you put a load on it

[Lloyd Smale]

Pipe fitting is a fun job, when you are young, but I got old.
Long ago you could buy #2 (nothing reeks worse than high sulfur #2) when the price was down at a cash discount. I doubt if there are any deals any more. People would hire me to install a pair of 330 gallon tanks, tanks made to fit through a door. 660 was the maximum indoor storage without a fire wall. So some people built a bunker and I happily put four of the heavy things in a spillproof contained concrete cellar hole. They poured an underground stinky shed outside the foundation, very clever. 1000 gallons would get most Yankees through to when oil was cheap again. I remember when #2 passed $1.00 a gallon, and Yankees refused to buy it, they burned wood that winter.
Other people had different ideas, but for me each 330 (or 275) had it own whistle and fill
two tanks max teed to a two inch vent: four 1.25" fills; two 2" vents. There will be no leaks.
Once upon a time, very commonly two tanks were piped in series, one fill, one vent. The modern truck's pumps could and did easily split the end weld, loosing a couple hundred gallons of stinking oil into the cellar. I was spill response, strong stomach, strong back.
Once upon a time, people buried 1000 gallon single wall tanks in their front yards, a disaster waiting to happen. Fairbanks has a generation of buried single wall 1000 gallon tanks, they were good tanks, tarred and buried in sand. They corrode from the inside out, from the sulfury bacterial sludge. They are all gonna leak, someday.
The last two tanks I buried were a pair of 10,000 gallon double wall with fill containment and intersticial alarms, cost most of $100k. The tank insurance will pay for removal in 20 years. If you want to burn 30 gallons an hour, you need a lot of 30 gallonses.
Truck would bring 9300 gallons per trip, $26,000?

now take away the real thing that will put us to our knees. Electricity!!! without it you cant power the pumps that pump it or fill the trucks that deliver it or the refinerys that make it. think your going to find canned goods and beens and rice. they all rely on electricity. how long do you think whats out there now will last. going to grow it youself. hope you have you seeds because nobody is going to give you some. do you have fertile land that will produce a crop every year without fertilizer? are you physicaly capable of growing it with only a shovel and hoe? im not!! then do you have people to stand guard it 24/7}?? this isnt the peaceful life your used to. people will do any thing for your food including kill you and your kids.

stores?? they wont be you friendly dry goods store of the 1800s. chances are they dont even exist because they would ransacked and the owner killed and like i said how would he replace his stock. how will he keep all the food we are used to with no refrigeration? want a steak? how long before all the city people fleeing their homes have killed them all? Even your horse if you have one. personally i wouldnt swap you a can of Cambells soup for a lb of gold. like is said we are only 2 weeks from anarchy. a few emps that take out our grid will bring us to our knees. nobody today will last without electricity and even if you can and are prepared someone's going to kill you to take it.

personally if i have to farm with hand tools and cut my firewood with an axe and buck saw i hope the end comes quick because any more i couldnt even if i wanted to. i doubt that even one percent of the people here have the skills to survive our great grandparents had and they didnt have angry mobs attacking them and even then were dammed lucky to make it to 60. what you get with these posts is walter middy/red dawn dreamers. most of us would be dead in a year.

Think we will quickly recover. an emp will take out all the transformers on you pole. we kept about a 100 of them in various sizes and had around 10k of customers. even if yours was replaced all the substation transformers would be destroyed too and our entire company has 3 spares and our areas substation had 8 of them and our small utility has around 50 substations. get a new one? other utilities will be facing the same so your not getting one from them. new one? they are made overseas and it takes about 6 months to get one under normal circumstances. it will take decades to get the if this happens here and probably never if all the nato countrys are facing the same thing.

thats just an emp. add a ground war or ground nukes and radiation to the mix. if you think shiny rocks will be the difference for you your stupid enough that instead of a year id give you 2 months. at least i can use dollar bills for a fire starter. me? im 67 and this IS RETIREMENT. i dont worry about saving money or gold that will be worthless if shtf or if i croke tomorrow. i spend my money and will enjoy my last years. i have food put up that would last me a year. i have plenty of guns and ammo. i can get water with a pitcher pump if i have to. so if nobody shoots me ill make it a year. if its lasts longer than that i hope God takes me quickly