When did casting get like this ?

[Wolfdog91]

So something I found interesting is how limitations on cast bullets have happened. The current thing seems to be you cant' or shouldn't push a cast rifle bullet past 2000fps. However while looking through the Lyman cast bullets hand book 3rd edition from the 80's. Well..... not saying you need to push them at jacketed velocity but it's certainly more possible then most try to make it seem. Also must say it seems something happened where casting seems to have been dumbed down a little .Reading though this manual vs new stuff.... seems a lot is left out as far as casting for HV rifle and getting accurate loads. Iean the newest stuff I've seen in print about cast rifle loading basically says 1800fs to 2000fps is what your gonna max out on and you might get half dext accuracy, live with it. Mean while the older stuff it's telling you how you COULD make speed demon super accurate loads.I mean it does seem most casting has moved over to pistol which honestly doesn't seem to need as much to get the results people want .
So what happened?


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[Hannibal]

A few years ago there was a HUGE blow-up on this forum about high-velocity cast bullets and how to achieve that reliability and with accuracy.

I'm not going to attempt to rehash the subject but I suspect you can uncover a lot if you do a search on the subject on this forum.

Be prepared because there's a lot to wade through and you'll likely be confused at the end.

I suggest conducting your own testing and draw conclusions for yourself. I believe you'll find it a challenge depending on what you consider accuracy and at what distance.

[elmacgyver0]

Companies like to sell their fancy jacketed bullets, possibly?

[Dusty Bannister]

Looking at the data for 270 Winchester as you present it, only one bullet selection lists a potentially most accurate combination. The remaining data for the 270 Winchester shows data that is tested for safe pressures.

25/06 does not even show a potentially most accurate load, but does give data that has been pressure tested that is safe.

243 Winchester shows only one of the combinations tested for potentially most accurate and that is also a modest velocity.

223 Remington also has pressure tested safe load data for a wide range of pressures, but no potentially most accurate load. This is telling the reloader that the data is safe, but you will have to seek your own accuracy loads. Based upon your own alloy, powder charges, fit and condition of equipment. While one can get jacketed bullet performance with cast bullets, not many people care to invest the time in the quest.

The new information in the front of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Ed, is quite informative if studied by persons just getting started. Others with more experience may not find it as beneficial. Yes, it does not contain all the information present in the 3rd edition, but there is new information and currently available powder data not in the prior edition.

[BLAHUT]

Try it and get your own answers ???

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman used to at least shoot their loads for actual accuracy at 50 yards. Some years back they stopped doing that and now select "accuracy loads" based on the internal ballistic uniformity. The fine print in the current Lyman manuals will tell you that. Many only shoot at ranges of 50 or 100 yards maximum and can get usable [not to be confused with "best"] accuracy at those ranges above 2000 fps. Still, the majority of cast bullet shooters aren't interested in HV loads. They are interested in cheap loads that just do "good enough" at the shorter ranges.

However, since most rifles have twists of 10" or faster good or the best accuracy will be found when using binary or ternary lubed cast bullets at less than 2000 fps. There is an "RPM Threshold" that falls between 120 to 140,000 RPM. With a 10" twist 140,000 RPM will be hit at 1944 fps. To push the threshold above that requires abilities and techniques that many haven't mastered or don't care to master.

[Wolfdog91]

Try it and get your own answers ???

I have been. But I'm.not asking for advice or a recipe in this post

[Wolfdog91]

Lyman used to at least shoot their loads for actual accuracy at 50 yards. Some years back they stopped doing that and now select "accuracy loads" based on the internal ballistic uniformity. The fine print in the current Lyman manuals will tell you that. Many only shoot at ranges of 50 or 100 yards maximum and can get usable [not to be confused with "best"] accuracy at those ranges above 2000 fps. Still, the majority of cast bullet shooters aren't interested in HV loads. They are interested in cheap loads that just do "good enough" at the shorter ranges.

However, since most rifles have twists of 10" or faster good or the best accuracy will be found when using binary or ternary lubed cast bullets at less than 2000 fps. There is an "RPM Threshold" that falls between 120 to 140,000 RPM. With a 10" twist 140,000 RPM will be hit at 1944 fps. To push the threshold above that requires abilities and techniques that many haven't mastered or don't care to master.

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

[Winger Ed.]

Once you get up into the 2000s, accuracy tends to fall off and the amount of Leading goes up.
Powder coating and gas checks help some, but they have their limits too.

When smokeless powders came along and the higher speeds became available, this is why jacketed bullets
came along shortly after to take advantage of the higher speeds smokeless powders made available.

What is in our future, and Professor youtube already has several videos on it is casting with Zinc.
From the same mold, they weigh about 60% of what a Lead boolit does.
However; you can push them on up to jacketed speeds safely, and with good results.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

However, since most rifles have twists of 10" or faster good or the best accuracy will be found when using binary or ternary lubed cast bullets at less than 2000 fps. There is an "RPM Threshold" that falls between 120 to 140,000 RPM. With a 10" twist 140,000 RPM will be hit at 1944 fps. To push the threshold above that requires abilities and techniques that many haven't mastered or don't care to master.

Larry has hit the nail on the head! My best cast boolit shooter is a 270 Savage built on a Douglas 1:10" twist barrel. There were no Lyman data for his round so through experiment I developed my own. A 132gn cast boolit with GC and powder coated can be shot with full loads (2588 fps) and very good accuracy.

[dverna]

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

It is not worth the journey. You read a lot of crap on sites like this. Listen to Larry. He nailed it.

The smartest decision I made was to give up on HV cast bullet loads. You will waste a lot of components and time to get mediocre results with most factory rifles.

I tried and failed with .30 cal bullets. It is easy to get a sub 1.5 MOA load with almost any $30-40 jacketed bullet in the .308 at 2600 fps. It is a challenge with cast bullets. And by sub 1.5 MOA I mean the average of 4 five shot groups...wallet groups do not mean much. I have no need for thousands of .30 cal bullets so why waste the time/resources. I bought 1200 premium hunting bullets that will last my lifetime for less than $700. You can piss away money on a two or three molds to find a bullet your gun "likes", and try different lubes and different sizers and GC's and shoot a bunch of groups with $85/k primers and $45/lb powder to find a mediocre load that shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards but goes to hell at 300 yards and may not expand reliably at all ranges.

With the .223 cast is even more ridiculous. I can buy 55 gr Hornady SP's for less than $10/100 and they will shoot 1 MOA at 3000 fps. Try that with a cast bullet. The Hornady bullets are less than $10/100 in bulk. A cast GC bullet is about $4/100. IMO it makes no sense to cast for that caliber.

Now, it you like to do stuff like that, go for it. BTW have you seen how many molds have gone on sale on this site recently? It is a good time to buy stuff but it tells you others are either getting too old to cast or have given up on getting good results.

The reality is you can never cast a better HV bullet than you can buy. You will need to determine the trade offs of deterioration in accuracy/range, cost savings and time invested.

[jsizemore]

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

When talking about accuracy reloading locally most will say "Ya ain't gotta do all dat!" They fall in the 2 categories of animal mauler or contributor.

[stubshaft]

I think the reason that velocity of current cast loads has fallen off is because of the lack of Linotype. Back when I was shooting silhouette lino was selling for 15 - 20 CENTS a pound. Heck, most of my 7mm bullets were pure Lino and I had no problem driving them to 2300 fps. I was even shooting "hardball" (Half and half, Lino and pure) in my IPSC and PPC guns.

The other aspect that I observed is that there is very little testing being done to ensure that the lube being used is giving you the best accuracy. Nowadays it seems that someone will throw together some red lube or LLA and if it doesn't lead, call it good. They are looking for quick and easy! Yet not many people try different lubes or adjusting the components of their lube for best accuracy. I remember having many conversations with Felix over the different components of lube and their effects on accuracy.

Just my 2 cents...

[Hannibal]

I have been. But I'm.not asking for advice or a recipe in this post

So you've tried it then. What velocity are you shooting at and what accuracy are you getting at what yardage? Because unless I'm reading too much into what you're saying you've already achieved the level you determined to be accurate and are questioning why others consider it difficult.

If I've got that wrong I'd like to know what you are posting about?

[M-Tecs]

So something I found interesting is how limitations on cast bullets have happened. The current thing seems to be you cant' or shouldn't push a cast rifle bullet past 2000fps. However while looking through the Lyman cast bullets hand book 3rd edition from the 80's. Well..... not saying you need to push them at jacketed velocity but it's certainly more possible then most try to make it seem. Also must say it seems something happened where casting seems to have been dumbed down a little .Reading though this manual vs new stuff.... seems a lot is left out as far as casting for HV rifle and getting accurate loads. Iean the newest stuff I've seen in print about cast rifle loading basically says 1800fs to 2000fps is what your gonna max out on and you might get half dext accuracy, live with it. Mean while the older stuff it's telling you how you COULD make speed demon super accurate loads.I mean it does seem most casting has moved over to pistol which honestly doesn't seem to need as much to get the results people want .
So what happened?

I've been casting since 1968. More information and molds are currently available than any time in the past. More like we are in the golden age verse being dumbed down.

The only real issue is wheel weights are not a good source of alloy anymore.

In the past paper patching allowed for increased velocities and accuracy, but few want to go through the effort. I have not jumped into PC yet, but claims are it does expand the performance envelope of cast??? With both the paper patch and PC controlling expansion compared to jacket is a challenge.

Even when they actually shot groups for the so-called accuracy load that means little. It's nothing more than the best accuracy out of that group of loads. If all groups tested gave poor accuracy the best accuracy is still poor. It also is meaningless in a different firearm, chamber and barrel.

Lead and lead alloy bullets have a more limited performance envelope than the currently available jacketed bullets. For hunting a slight change in the alloy can produce over or under expansion and or fragmentation.

Some people like Larry have built slow twist rifles for custom chambers and bullet design to maximize accuracy. His accuracy results speak for themselves. For hunting the question how they compare to jacketed for expansion performance?

Most that go down the HV quest discover the efforts don't justify the rewards for most applications.

[35 Rem]

I think a lot of the reason why few seek high velocity cast is hunting. Most want to be able to hunt with their cast rifle loads even if they rarely do. As velocity goes up hardness is going to tend to increase also. You can only make a bullet so hard before it begins to lack expansion needed for humane kills.

For me, I only hunt with cast in cartridges that max out a bit above 2,000 ft/sec. If I want to overlook huge fields and make 400 yard or longer shots, I go to the 257 Weatherby and Barnes TTSX 100 grain at 3,590 ft/sec.

[gloob]

Jacketed data always lists a specific manufactured bullet.

Commercial cast rifle bullets are few, and what are available seem to be the flavor of the month. Limited availability at high cost until the maker realizes no one wants to buy cast rifle bullets in quantities that make it sensible.

Lyman ends up listing the bullet mold, weight, and only using #2 alloy.

But in practice, we have infinite alloys, different brand and material checks, water quenching, how many days/weeks post-quench, and several different coatings. It gets complicated.

[billmc2]

The more I read on this site, the more I discover just how much I do not know. It sounds to me, that many of you have forgotten more than I'll ever be able to learn. (I just got started in this business a couple of years ago. The calendar is telling me I don't have enough time left to learn all this stuff.)

[poppy42]

I kind of think it cycles as technology changes. I mean realistically man’s been casting lead projectiles for What, 600 years? It started out as Plano leadballs that rattle down the muzzle of a smoothbore. Then rifling came about designs and shapes changed. Now we powder coat and gas check them. There’s already a lot of talk about casting zinc bullets. It seems like as technological advances in powders and bullet designs change it takes a little while for casting to catch up with it. Take casting for the AR as an example. Not too long ago it wasn’t exactly the easiest thing to do. Add gas jacks and powder coating or high-tech coating all of a sudden it’s not that big a deal anymore. Personally I’ve been there done that with quite good effects not so much anymore stew much of a hassle cast of those tiny little 22 caliber bullets as far as I’m concerned. The process ebbs and flows

[Shopdog]

It's hard to get "there" without going through here. Sayin,if you aren't shooting bugholes and dots at low node 4759 and 4198 loads,then expecting anything at 4895 and Varget ain't gonna happen. As your "progress" into really slow powders your bench manors are going to fail,miserably.... but now,your already behind the curve(never got the accuracy at low node) and getting deeper. The torque on a tight twist jacked up 260 is humbling,trying it with a hunting rifle will make you look like a little kid.