Wanting to get a SS BPCR for Deer hunting

[PotomacRanger]

I prevoiously posted about a local gun store raffle and everyone on hear alerted to me the raffle prices were too high so I did not throw in my lot. I however want to get as the thread title suggests a Single Shot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle for Deer Hunting. I hunt White Tail Deer in the state of Maryland. I only hunt in Maryland so I dont need Cape Buffalo size rifles. My state does require the rifle to be a Straight Walled Cartridge. Ease of reloading doesnt matter to me so long as there is brass available or brass that can be reshaped to fit a different caliber. I have Black Powder, lead ingots and I have large rifle primers at my disposal. I was looking at old US Army and Cavalry Trapdoor Springfields sine they seem quite plentiful. Originals though no repros as they are very expensive. I wanted to ask if there is a major velocity difference between a 32" bbl Rifle and 22" bbl carbine. I see also online that the Rifle was loaded as a .459" 405gr bullet and 70gr charge and the carbine was loaded as a .459" 405gr bullet and 55gr of powder. Was this done to lessen recoil or because the carbine cant handle the 70gr charge without serious damage ? Also what would be better for deer ? I know the carbine is an easier carry but where I hunt its mostly open ground. Will a carbine suffer from this ? Does anyone have any other straight wall SS BPCR suggestions besides the trapdoor rifle ? If so lay em down and your opinions in the comments below thank you.

[EastoftheBay]

I prevoiously posted about a local gun store raffle and everyone on hear alerted to me the raffle prices were too high so I did not throw in my lot. I however want to get as the thread title suggests a Single Shot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle for Deer Hunting. I hunt White Tail Deer in the state of Maryland. I only hunt in Maryland so I dont need Cape Buffalo size rifles. My state does require the rifle to be a Straight Walled Cartridge.

I own one of each model of Trapdoor Rifle. There are three by the way. There is the Springfield Infantry Rifle 32" Barrel, Springfield Cadet Rifle 29" Barrel and the Springfield Carbine 22" barrel. The Cadet is the best of both worlds its got 7" more barrel than a carbine but 3" less than a rifle. However its hard to find one without a Buffington Sight. Which brings me to my next point. If you see any Springfield Rifle or Carbine that has a long flat rear sight about an inch or two long I would advise you do not buy that rifle. These sights are found on mostly 1884 Model Rifles/Carbines and are known as "Buffington Battle Sights". The older sights are just "Musket Type Ladder Sights" both in a "Musket Type", "Buck Horn" and an experimental Mauser style sight on the newer ones. The older sights are sighted in at a minimum of 100 yards whereas the Buffington is sighted in at a minimum of 250 yards. So if you shot a deer at 50 yards behind the shoulder the older sight might put your shot high in the back but still a killing blow. If you took the same shot with the Buffington you will be firing over the deer's back. So I implore you since you will most likely be a beginner BPCR shooter to go for a rifle 1883 and older and no Buffingtons. As far as the 55gr Carbine question goes, I load my Carbine Cadet and Rifle with 405-70-459 loads and yea the carbine bites a bit but back in the day the reduction of powder charge was only done for recoil purposes. Now you also have to figure how long of a rifle you can transport. If you have a small car/suv or single cab pickup the carbine is the best option but if you have no transport issues then I would implore you to buy either an Infantry Rifle or a Cadet Rifle. .45-70 is the easiest caliber to load for since its highly popular in both forms. If you want other suggestions than I would suggest .32-40, .38-55, .45-70, .45-90, .577 Snider and .50-70 wity .38-55, .45-70 and .45-90 being the easiest to reload for with .577 Snider coming close second. I suggest as well the Snider-Enfield Rifle. I own both a Snider Mk. II rifle and a Snider Artillery Carbine and they are a hoot. I much prefer it to my Trapdoors. Brass is the same cost in my opinion as 50 brass cases is about $50 USD for both. The Snider shoots on military regs a 480gr .577 Bullet but I shoot a 520gr .600" bullet as my rifles have some worn barrels. Your choice to make all the same.

[gunther]

Trapdoor front sights are pinned into a base on the barrel. remove the pin and save the blade, and install a taller blade. Buffington sights need to be clean and lubricated before adjustment, but they are very good. Whichever cartridge you wind up with, do not leave any space between the powder charge and the base of the bullet. That can bulge the barrel.

[Sgt H]

I am not an expert on the trapdoor rifles/carbines, but have some experience with them through friends and fellow shooters I compete with. As far as prices for these I think you will find those examples priced low are going to be rather beat up with pitted bores. The ones you find in good shape with minty bores are going to command prices as much as or higher than repros and much higher than something like an NEF handi rifle. If you find a good one don't shy away due to a Buffington sight. As Gunther said front sights are pinned. Install a taller blade so you can file it down till you get an appropriate zero for hunting with your chosen load.

[John Taylor]

With modern brass you will have trouble trying to get 70 grains of powder in. The carbine loads were lighter because of recoil which would be a problem if shooting while riding a horse. For the intended purpose I would go with w 38-55, less recoil and easy to load for. I prefer the rolling block over the trap door but then every one has their own favorite. If you can afford a new rifle check out CPA 44 1/2 Stevens, many think this is top of the line for a single shot.

[koger]

You can go to Simpsons Ltd.com, get a rolling block 12.7x44R done sporterized with a good bore for$650 or so, shipped right to your door. .50 Alaskan brass can be trimmed down, buy a Lee 450 gr .515 double cavity, and a set of 50/70 dies will work. I have 2 of these that shoot great, would meet your straight wall round needs. I shoot Unique as a powder in mine, several other smokeless will work, or you can shoot black powder, pyrodex, triple seven all with good results, with the right lube and loading technique. I prefer the RB as stated above. If you are in the market, I have a very nice trapdoor 90% or above, with a mint bore, 1884 model I believe, with buffington sights, great blue, great stock and sling, that could be yours.

[Ben_51004]

You may wish to consider the Winchester or Browning 1885 rifle. I have the Browning in .38-55. I believe this round qualifies as "straight wall", and would probably prove much less expensive to shoot overall, with less recoil, and it will reliably bring down any deer with a solid hit. Just something to think about.

[fastdadio]

In addition to all that's been said above, any modern single shot in the right caliber can be loaded with the holy black.....

[5090SS]

Might want to consider a CVA Scout. Not a classic single shot along the lines of a trapdoor or Sharps. Its a good learning rifle, scope base only no irons or holes for them its synthetic and stainless steel all the way. Mine is a 45/70 and came with a really nice trigger pull. I have had fun learning to load black powder 45/70 with it. If I remember right I got it for under $500 new.

[Bigslug]

The 55 grain carbine load was to reduce recoil in the lighter cavalry guns. The Brits did much the same with their Martinis.

One thing to be aware of with the military guns of that period is that most of the sights are set up for holding on the other guy's belt buckle to hit him in the chest, so odds are, your standard sight picture will print high. They were also big on different holds for burying the front post in the rear notch, so get ready for some quirks.

If I was looking for a single shot in a straightwall round for deer, I'd probably prefer an 1885 Winchester/Browning High Wall in .38-55 - possibly a modern Miroku/Wichester repro with a faster twist barrel for heavier bullets. The round is capable of great accuracy and will shoot a little flatter than a trapdoor-safe .45-70 load. I prefer the originals and Mirokus to the Italian clones (won't buy one despite otherwise excellent build quality) because they stay cocked after you close them, where Uberti apparently had some lawyers who insisted their hammers drop back down to halfcock. . . never mind that they make scads of lever action repeaters that stay cocked when you cycle them.

[marlinman93]

A friend of mine just purchased a Winchester Moroku Traditional Hunter in .38-55 a couple weeks ago. He brought it to our annual long range shoot last weekend, and had worked up loads for the rifle using 4198 and a 310 gr. Postel bullet. I was very impressed at how well the gun shot, and how accurate it was at distances from 400 yd. minimum to 1000 yd. maximum. He was hitting as consistently as any of the more traditional .45 caliber BPCR rifles, and loads were very comfortable also. I don't think he had any misses at 400 yds., even on the smaller dingers of around 12'' diameter.

[PotomacRanger]

With modern brass you will have trouble trying to get 70 grains of powder in. The carbine loads were lighter because of recoil which would be a problem if shooting while riding a horse. For the intended purpose I would go with w 38-55, less recoil and easy to load for. I prefer the rolling block over the trap door but then every one has their own favorite. If you can afford a new rifle check out CPA 44 1/2 Stevens, many think this is top of the line for a single shot.

My local gun store has two Stevens 44 singles in .38-55 and .32-40. I assume both are black powder loads as they are originals. They are a lot cheaper than the CPA ones although they arent brand new either. Will black powder .38-55 or .32-40 be insufficient for Deer Hunting out to 75~80 yards ?

[gnoahhh]

I'm in Maryland too. PM me and I can advise you on the ins-and-outs of straight wall cartridge regs in our fair Blue state.

[PotomacRanger]

Might want to consider a CVA Scout. Not a classic single shot along the lines of a trapdoor or Sharps. Its a good learning rifle, scope base only no irons or holes for them its synthetic and stainless steel all the way. Mine is a 45/70 and came with a really nice trigger pull. I have had fun learning to load black powder 45/70 with it. If I remember right I got it for under $500 new.

I only hunt with Iron sights, I hate using scopes. The only scope I have is an old Thompson Center Hawken with a Custom 33" Barrel and a 6x Brass Tube Scope made by Miroku of Japan from Dixie Gun Works. I bought that rifle for $300 when I turned 18 from a local muzzle loading rifle shooting enthusiast. Its cool however I also have a flintlock addiction. I also have a personal preference for wood against synthetic stocks and browned, blued or parkerized finish. I am not big on Brass or Stainless steel. Thanks for the suggestion all the same.

[uscra112]

My local gun store has two Stevens 44 singles in .38-55 and .32-40. I assume both are black powder loads as they are originals. They are a lot cheaper than the CPA ones although they arent brand new either. Will black powder .38-55 or .32-40 be insufficient for Deer Hunting out to 75~80 yards ?

Model 44s don't last long as .38-55 or .32-40, even with the "lugged hammer" that Stevens fitted them with, blackpowder loads notwithstanding. Worse yet are the "gunsmith specials" I see too often where Milo Parkenfarker fitted a .32-40 barrel to a gun without the lug. I've got two, and I don't shoot 'em.

Hammer lug looks like this

[PotomacRanger]

Model 44s don't last long as .38-55 or .32-40, even with the "lugged hammer" that Stevens fitted them with, blackpowder loads notwithstanding. Worse yet are the "gunsmith specials" I see too often where Milo Parkenfarker fitted a .32-40 barrel to a gun without the lug. I've got two, and I don't shoot 'em.

Hammer lug looks like this

Yea thanks for the info. They have a lot of Stevens single shot rifles of this style. This gun shop has one in .28-30, .32-40, .38-55, .44-40, .25-20SS and .32 Rimfire. They are all fairly cheap but now I see why the most expensive was the .44-40 at $900 the rest were all under $475. They all came from a private collection of a silhouette shooter.

[uscra112]

Yea thanks for the info. They have a lot of Stevens single shot rifles of this style. This gun shop has one in .28-30, .32-40, .38-55, .44-40, .25-20SS and .32 Rimfire. They are all fairly cheap but now I see why the most expensive was the .44-40 at $900 the rest were all under $475. They all came from a private collection of a silhouette shooter.

Wish I were closer. I've been building a database of Model 44s for several years now. And I'd snap that 44-40 up in a New York minute. Only know of one other. A .28-30 is a rare bird, too. Love to know the serial numbers and features of both.

[Spencer_Murphy]

Stevens 44 rifles are nice but most are black powder I think

[uscra112]

The 44 was conceived for black powder. Smokeless was still a few years away. Most of them were sold for rimfire or small game cartridges.

It was never really suited to the .32-40 even as a black powder cartridge, although they did sell them equipped with a work-around, which is the so-called "lugged hammer". As .32-40s they were nonetheless very accurate, and for a short time were very competitive in the Schuetzen game. Tom Rowe is coming out with another of his beautiful coffee-table books on the Schuetzen versions, taking orders at the ASSRA site for January delivery.

The 44's weakness is the toggle link. The action geometry is such that the link and pins bear a compression load that is more than half the cartridge's breech thrust at every shot. The original links were a very ordinary grade of steel, and the holes in it get battered oversize. I've even found the pins bent. When this happens the headspace opens up, and the worse that gets, the faster it gets worse.

They are at their best today with modern rimfire cartridges up to and including the .22 Magnum and .17 WSM. OK with mild smokeless centerfire loads in .25-20 SS and .32-20. Hot .22s like the Hornet will loosen it up in a hurry. Factory .25-20 WCF ammo ditto. .218 Bee is absolutely out. .38 Special OK but no +P loads, please. .32 S&W long, but not the longer, hotter straight-wall .32s. I have 44s in .32 Ideal which is OK when loaded mild. I have .32-40s which I almost never shoot. Yeah, I could set one up for deer at 50 yards, but I'd shoot it just enough to sight it in and fill my tag, no more. If my state had a 1000 ft-lbs. energy rule, I wouldn't even try.

Bottom line, they are very good as plinkers or small game rifles, but not as a varmint rifles in the modern sense. There are much better choices for a deer rifle.

[Sgt H]

A few posts back Ben mentioned a Miroku Browning/Winchester 1885. I have one of these I purchased strictly as a hunting rifle in 45-70. My 30" barreled Sharps and 26" Browning 1886 (also made by Miroku) are both unwieldy for deer hunting being long and heavy at 12 and 10.5 lbs respectively. I use these for long range and gong shoots. My 1885 is one of the limited runs (1000-1500 made) with a 24" barrel and a recoil pad instead of the crescent butt. The quality is top notch and my is quite accurate. Drilled and tapped for a scope which my old eyes need for dawn/dusk light and is also drilled for a tang sight. Williams also used to make a receiver mounted peep, model FP1885, some can still be found. Being a modern rifle it can also take high pressure smokeless/jacketed loads if you choose or have the need. Took me a while scouring the auction sites to find one though.