How tight is too tight?

[Smellysniper]

Hi all,I am an experienced UK reloader of pistols and full bore rifles but new to shotgun slug reloading. I have a Hatsan MPA and want to shoot slug from it with a view to shooting what in the UK is known as Target Shotgun. My Hatsan ejects almost everything commercial,shotshells,slug,buckshot. It wont eject my reloads! At the moment,because it is a cheaper option,I am cutting off the petals of shotshells and replacing the shot with a slug to my own design which is carefully sized to my bore diameter which is .720" It drops straight in the de-pettalled case and is then roll crimped. It is very accurate at 20 yards,all the holes touching in a 6 round group standing, supported but doesnt eject every time .If it does the cases just fall at my feet wheras the commercial slug,buck and shot fly as they should about 6 er 8 feet. I have tried lots of different powders,which are difficult to obtain at the moment but the ejection is aways poor. My latest theory is that my slug is such a good ,slide fit in the bore that it is not creating enough back pressure to reliably work the action. As I understand it,shot tends to bunch up on firing and create more pressure than a bore riding slug. Commercial slugs are probaly bigger and buck is just quick. They all work. A friends reloaded shell worked OK and he tells me it is .732" diameter,some .012" bigger! I was initially concerned when I starte slug reloading about too tight a fit leading to pressure overload but perhaps I have been too cautious and need a bit more diameter. As an engineer ,I am able to produce most of my tooling and the mould is a bit like a cotton reel so has a small bearing surface which can squash down .
After all this preamble,i think my question to all you experience sluggers is how tight can I make the slug to allow the pressure to increase a bit. Has anyone got any figures of how much force it needs to push a slug down a barrel. At present my slug can be simply pushed through the barrel with light taps from the cleaning rod. Any info on how tight it should be? I have seen 10 pounds force for a plastic wadded slug but mine is just lead.
Any comment would be helpful.
I should add that I am rubbish with computers and dont know much about Forums!

[longbow]

Not sure I have answers but I do have some questions and comments.

What is the slug design? Is this a Foster style hollow base slug? Attached wad slug like a Brenneke? Or...?

Are you using shot load recipes or slug recipes for the loads you are shooting?

Are you casting the slugs from soft lead or wheel weights/antimonial lead?

Are you roll crimping or fold crimping? A deep roll crimp will increase pressure some at ignition.

Generally speaking the old rule of thumb was that a slug or wad slug fit to bore shouldn't run more than about 0.003" over bore diameter... or more correctly 0.003" over the tightest constriction if the barrel is choked. However, Slugs like Brenneke are designed to squeeze down if they hit a choke as are Foster style slugs.

I can also say that I have loaded 0.735" RB's (actually cast at 0.738") and shot them through a smoothbore of 0.733" with no issues and good accuracy then through a rifled Remington 870 with 0.727" groove diameter so 0.011" oversize but again no issues and very good accuracy. These were ACWW RB's so moderatley hard. They tap through my smoothbore barrel easily as ther is little meat at the equator.

Another general rule of thumb is that a slug will develop less pressre than a shot load of same weight due to less bore friction as you mention.

It could well be that with the slip fit to bore and small bearing area that you are correct and that the pressure is not building to efficiently burn the powder. I can say that I ran into that using a 1 1/8 oz. shot load recipe with Unique powder with the shot replaced with a Lee 7/8 oz. slug. I had lots of Unique and not much Green Dot so decided to try the Unique but the payload was a bit light and 3 out of 10 rounds were near bloopers. The other 7 seemed to perform normally and accuracy was good. I suspect that with the light payload I was right on the edge of not enough pressure for the powder to burn efficiently. Swtching to Green Dot solved that and the slugs shot well.

If you have the means, I'd suggest knurling those slugs up a few thou so they swage to fit the bore. My diamond knurler raises .45 cal. bullets by 0.010 if I run deep enough to fully form the diamond pattern on the bullets. I haven't checked on 12 ga. slugs but the diameter will increase anywhere from a few though to 0.010" depending on how deep the knurling roll runs on the .45 bullets so should be similar for larger slugs. I did knurl some HB slugs up to 0.733" to suit my test gun bore.

Most factory Foster style slugs used to be considerably under bore diameter so had to slug up at ignition to fill the bore. My understanding is that most manufacturers have since increased the diameter of Foster slugs to nominal bore diameter and the Federal Tru-Ball uses a plastic ball and driver wad to swage the slug to suit the bore diameter at firing.

If you haven't used slug specific load data you might want to give that a go too as slug specific recipes tend to be much higher velocity so running at higher pressures than many shot recipes... of course they ar estill within acceptable pressure limits but they are specific to slugs so should work better than converted shot load data. If you don't want the recoil there ar ereduced recoil slug loads out there as well but again slug specific so they should provide efficient and complete powder combustion.

Another approach is to look at the Lee Drive Key slug wad recommendations and also Lyman Sabot Slug wad recommendations to determine the fits they recommend. A good source for info there is to search Shotgunworld for SuperBlazingSabots (Ajay Madan) who posted a great deal about slug and wad fits.

But I am starting to ramble on here.

I am sure others will add but if you can answer the questions that would be helpful.

Also, if you can post a pic of your slug I would like to see it.

Longbow

[jimb16]

If you want a slightly tighter fit, you can always paper wrap the slug.

[Smellysniper]

Thank you so much for your replies. As you can imagine here in the UK we are always struggling with any type of shooting. This is due to both legal regulations and supply constraints. Equipment and info. that you can get easily in the U S is not available here and most U S suppliers will not ship to the UK both from legal constrictions and cost. So we struggle! I am more fortunate than most because I can make things and I do that a great deal. Producing slug loads is especially difficult as there is not a great deal of knowledg over here. Most shooters who shoot Target Shotgun ,if they are using slug ,simply buy commercial stuff .The cost is high. A box of 25 slug cartridges is £25 ,that is a pound a round.I can reload for 30 pence a round.! None of this will make much sense to U S shooters but it is expensive.
To answer some of your queries. !
Slug design : My first slug was rather like a cotton reel with a hollow base ,the mould carefully machined to .720" diameter which is my bore size.About one and a quarter ounces . I did of course slug the barrel to find the bore size. I used this with Green Dot, Unique and Red Dot I loaded lots of rounds in 2 grain increments from 20 grains up,but none of them ejected well. I did have some success with 26 grains of Red Dot which I thought was OK to shoot but anti social and I was advised,with horror,that it was an overload so stopped using it. As suitable powder was, and is, not available at present I decided to try to use standard shotshells and modify them . I removed the petal crimp,emptied the shot and replaced it with a similar slug shape but shorter and solid based . As you can imagine ,the one form of shooting which is relatively easy to do in the UK is clays and cartridges are easily available and relatively cheap at 30P per cartridge . The slugged cartridge is also very easy to produce, and that is the way I would like to proceed. Producing slugs like this is much easier for me as any suitable powder at present is very expensive and virtually impossible to obtain. So I am concentrating on that system. But they dont work! The original shotshell works a treat,when the shot is replaced by my bore ride slug,they dont! Which is why really the only thing in common is the slug design.Which leads me to my theory that it is simpy too small.
The slug is cast from range scrap which is about 13 Brinnel so much harder than lead which is 5!
My current slug is not hollow based.
NRA UK regulations state that slugs and plastic wads which do not stay together in the backstop must not be used,they must be permanently attached to each other,which is why I have to use felt wads and why the modified shotshel in fibre is such a good plan for me with what I have available.
Your comments on paper wrapping and knurling are extremely valuable as is the .003 oversize statement. I have also produced a round ball mould and my first attempt produced a .002' oversize. The amount of force i needed to ram it down the barrel concerned me a lot and i reduced the mould size to .720" so a slide fit again.They dont work either!
I think that my plan of action now, taking note of your very useful info. is to increase the slug size by about .003" either by modifying my mould ,knurling or paper patching. I think I should also try a softer lead mix. I have in mind a slug shape with the front lands at bore ride size and the base with a hollow cavity which will allow me to "flare" the skirt to any reasonable diameter using a suitably shaped punch and sizing if neccessary . I like the idea of a plastic ball in the cavity to upset the skirt but that would be a bit of a mission.
Thanks to all once more,it is good to know I can use your wide experience. There is not much in the UK.on slugging.As you can imagine shooting slug is difficult in the UK.I am fortunate that I am not far from Bisley which is really the only place I can do that so testing sessions are few and far between owing to the cost of hiring suitable ranges . I am also fortunate in having two other nutters to shoot with and share info and costs of range hire.
I will attempt to send a pic but as i stated initially I am a computer dummy.
Best Regards,and thanks,Tony

[Smellysniper]

Thank you so much for your replies. As you can imagine here in the UK we are always struggling with any type of shooting. This is due to both legal regulations and supply constraints. Equipment and info. that you can get easily in the U S is not available here and most U S suppliers will not ship to the UK both from legal constrictions and cost. So we struggle! I am more fortunate than most because I can make things and I do that a great deal. Producing slug loads is especially difficult as there is not a great deal of knowledg over here. Most shooters who shoot Target Shotgun ,if they are using slug ,simply buy commercial stuff .The cost is high. A box of 25 slug cartridges is £25 ,that is a pound a round.I can reload for 30 pence a round.! None of this will make much sense to U S shooters but it is expensive.
To answer some of your queries. !
Slug design : My first slug was rather like a cotton reel with a hollow base ,the mould carefully machined to .720" diameter which is my bore size.About one and a quarter ounces . I did of course slug the barrel to find the bore size. I used this with Green Dot, Unique and Red Dot I loaded lots of rounds in 2 grain increments from 20 grains up,but none of them ejected well. I did have some success with 26 grains of Red Dot which I thought was OK to shoot but anti social and I was advised,with horror,that it was an overload so stopped using it. As suitable powder was, and is, not available at present I decided to try to use standard shotshells and modify them . I removed the petal crimp,emptied the shot and replaced it with a similar slug shape but shorter and solid based . As you can imagine ,the one form of shooting which is relatively easy to do in the UK is clays and cartridges are easily available and relatively cheap at 30P per cartridge . The slugged cartridge is also very easy to produce, and that is the way I would like to proceed. Producing slugs like this is much easier for me as any suitable powder at present is very expensive and virtually impossible to obtain. So I am concentrating on that system. But they dont work! The original shotshell works a treat,when the shot is replaced by my bore ride slug,they dont! Which is why really the only thing in common is the slug design.Which leads me to my theory that it is simpy too small.
The slug is cast from range scrap which is about 13 Brinnel so much harder than lead which is 5!
My current slug is not hollow based.
NRA UK regulations state that slugs and plastic wads which do not stay together in the backstop must not be used,they must be permanently attached to each other,which is why I have to use felt wads and why the modified shotshel in fibre is such a good plan for me with what I have available.
Your comments on paper wrapping and knurling are extremely valuable as is the .003 oversize statement. I have also produced a round ball mould and my first attempt produced a .002' oversize. The amount of force i needed to ram it down the barrel concerned me a lot and i reduced the mould size to .720" so a slide fit again.They dont work either!
I think that my plan of action now, taking note of your very useful info. is to increase the slug size by about .003" either by modifying my mould ,knurling or paper patching. I think I should also try a softer lead mix. I have in mind a slug shape with the front lands at bore ride size and the base with a hollow cavity which will allow me to "flare" the skirt to any reasonable diameter using a suitably shaped punch and sizing if neccessary . I like the idea of a plastic ball in the cavity to upset the skirt but that would be a bit of a mission.
Thanks to all once more,it is good to know I can use your wide experience. There is not much in the UK.on slugging.As you can imagine shooting slug is difficult in the UK.I am fortunate that I am not far from Bisley which is really the only place I can do that so testing sessions are few and far between owing to the cost of hiring suitable ranges . I am also fortunate in having two other nutters to shoot with and share info and costs of range hire.
I will attempt to send a pic but as i stated initially I am a computer dummy.
Best Regards,and thanks,Tony

[longbow]

Something that should work just fine is to buy commercial birdshot rounds, open them up, dump the shot then replace with equal weight of slug then recrimp. This is how many people load Lee Drive Key slugs and they work just fine... though I can't say for sure I have read of them operating a semi auto.

I have loaded round balls in shotcups using 0.662" RB's cloth patched into the shotcup just as I would load a patched round ball into a muzzleloader except into the hull. These have given very good accuracy of 4" groups or less at 50 yards. Round ball groups tend to grow exponentialy much beyond about 60 yards though.

Also, naked 0.735" RG's loaded over a hard cad wad column have given similar accuracy.

I have some home made moulds for both wad slugs and full bore slugs that have also given as good or better accuracy as most factory Foster slugs. These are made in both hollow base and attached wad styles.

I'll say that generally a "firm" push through the bore is desirable. With the 0.735" RB's I was concerned about the ball being oversize but there is little meat at the equator so it swages down easily. It took little effort to get the ball swaged to bore size then of course the rest of the trip through the bore wad pretty easy.

From what you say, it appears that you are restricted to full bore slugs so no wad slugs.

I would try knurling your slugs up in diameter for a tighter fit to see if that helps. It is easy toi make a knurler and Corbin sells them:

http://www.corbins.com/hct-2.htm

Here is a homemade knurler posted on Cast Boolits:



Here is my homemade (and somewhat crude but effective knurler):





I make what I call push out moulds modeled more or less on the old Ideal Cylindrical moulds:



Except I make mine out of 1 1/2" round bar. They can be made in base pour or nose pour which I use for hollow base slugs. They are easy to make and easy to change weights and nose styles as the bit are replaceable.

I don't have any hollow base mould pics handy but here is one I made for a TC HP base pour slug to fit into an unslit CSD wad as a non-discarding sabot for a fellow:




This will cast either conical HP of flat nose (FN oin is shown in the 2nd pic).

Using a removable nose form these moulds can be used to cast nose pour HB slugs as well. Plus they can be used to cast solid slugs with screw starter holes to produce a Brenneke style slug with attached base wad. Again, I don't have pics handy but can post or email if you send PM me your email address.

I also modified Lee Drive Key slug moulds to add a center post to use for attached wads:



Of course these are wad slugs so you can't use them but the same can be done with full bore moulds.

As for paper patching full bore slugs, it may work and I have done it but got flyers I think from the paper patch being damaged opening the crimp. It wouldn't hurt to try though.

If you like pics of my full bore HB slugs let me know, it may give you some ideas if this wasn't enough.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Is your barrel .720 the full length or is it just at the Muzzle? .720 sounds like an Improved Cylinder Choke. Also you didn't say what kind of shotgun you are shooting? Semi Auto I assume.

IF the gun will cycle regular #8 Birdshot it should cycle your shells with just the slug replacing the Shot. We need to know what kind of gun it is?

Randy

[Smellysniper]

Wow! thats loads of info to work through,thanks for your time and trouble. I should be able to knock up a knurl of some kind ,that sounds worth trying. We are allowed to use plastic wads at Bisley but for some reason,best known to the NRAUK ,the wad must be permanently attached to the slug .This is usually done with a woodscrew through the wad and into the slug which must have a suitably sized hole in it. I have tried to avoid that hassle but it can be done. Otherwise they insist on fibre wads or paper. I think it is to do with the lead retrieval system they use.
My gun is a 10 shot,pistol gripped Semi Auto shotgun. It is Turkish and is ,in my opinion very well made. The bore slugs out at .720' and is very consistant with no tight spots. The barrel is proofed for high performance steel shot so should be OK for pressure . It has screw in chokes and I am naturally running with cylinder when using slug .It has occured to me that a slightly tighter choke may improve back pressure but that is in the future as I only have a cylinder and a full chokes at this time.As you say ,there seems to be no reason at all why a simple swap shot for slug should not work. I can only surmise that it is lack of back pressure. The push out mould is a great idea and one that never occurred to me. The main time consuming work with my moulds so far is the work making a split mould .The pushout type is a super idea. New to me. Production would be slow but I am not using hundreds of slugs,cant get the range time in the UK.
I am sure it is not always possible in the USA or Canada but how I envy the shooters who can pop out their back porch and test a few loads!
Thanks again,I will read everything you have posted . my email address is "tonymarotto303@gmail.com
Best Regards,Tony

[243winxb]

Use pure lead & increase powder charge. The slug needs to expand to the bore.

[Smellysniper]

Thanks for your advice. At the moment ,I am trying to simply replace the shot in a fibre wad, standard shotgun cartridge . I am cutting off just the petals of the fold crimp, leaving a little of the original rolled edge . I then remove the shot and replacing it with a solid slug cast in hard ,range scrap lead about 13 Brinnell. The slug is to my own bespoke design. It drops in the de-shotted case and the original roll crimp is rolled over a little more to hold the slug in neatly. My Hatsan,10 shot semi auto is very length sensitive and will double feed anything below 55 long.To maintain that length in my modified cartridge ,that is the tightest I can roll crimp. There is no plastic wad,just powder,wax disc,fibre wad and my slug. The finished cartridge is quick to make ,relatively cheap and looks great and is very accurate.The only snag is that it doesnt work! The ejection is feeble. The empty case ,if it ejects at all,which it does sometimes,just trickles out and falls at my feet. Commercial slug,buckshot,and the original shot cartridge work OK with the cases flying 5 or 6 feet away on ejection. It is just the replacing of the shot with slug that fails to eject cleanly. I started slug reloading in the usual way,using my heavy, bore riding slug,same hardness,13 BHN in a once fired case using Unique, Green Dot and Red Dot. My problem was and still is,that as a reloader of pistol and rifle metallic cartridges,I only had fast pistol powderd and very slow rifle powders to initially try when i started slug reloading. Unique,and Green Dot in loads of 20 to 26 in 2 grain increments did not work very well,always poor ejection .Red Dot was better but the charges were getting high and although the recoil was OK it was a very anti social load and my horrified shooting companions were of the opinion that the load of 26 grains of Red Dot was an overload and I ceased loading that load although it ejected well. I was advised that I needed a slower powder like Herco and Blue Dot but nothing suitable was available locally and powder cannot be shipped. Here in the UK we are very short of any sort of reloading stuff ,especially at the moment, but my problem is that i do not know what powder to buy.
To overcome the supply problem ,I decided to simply modify a shotgun shell .I really had no doubts that it would work but it did not,and I really do not know why. It should in theory be a great load,easy ,cheap and accurate,but it wont eject with any force. This is why I am looking for ways of increasing pressure using the modified ,slugged shotshell .Longbow has been very helpful,with loads of advice and I have come to the concluson that to try to improve the ejection of the modified shotshell ,I will try a very slightly tighter bore,pure lead slug with a skirt and cavity which can swage up on firing to give a better seal,perhaps rather like the Lyman airgun type slug but bore riding diameter. If that doesnt work,I will have to revert to re- loading from scratch using that slug and a slower powder,if I can get it. The only place we can shoot slug in the UK is on dedicated slug ranges.Very few Clubs can do that and there are none in my area,Fortunately I am withing 20 miles of Bisley but range time there is hard to get and very expensive.To do any form of shooting in the UK ,apart from clay shooting, is difficult, with stringent legal requirements and lack of consumables.You have to be dedicated. sadly ,I am .
Best regards,Tony

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tony: My standard Slug load for our 3 gun matches here is My standard Trap load of 18-20 gr of Green Dot WAA12 Wad and a Lee 1 oz. Slug or Lyman 525 Slug replacing the shot. This ejects from my Browning A5 "Recoil Operated" Shotgun just fine . I do use a fold crimp, which you might try doing instead of the roll crimp.

I personally think there is something going on with your gun. You do realize that the pressure generated by your loads is going to be less than 8-10,000 psi? Maybe your gun's Gas System needs more volume to function reliably? It maybe set up to function on the bottom end of what Factory Ammo produces, and your loads may generate less?

This is an AR style gun? If so maybe a larger gas tube would get you where you need to go.

Just some suggestions to look at?.

Randy

[lightload]

Smellysniper, does the law there permit you to own handguns?

[longbow]

So... I did a bit of research and it turns out that the CIP standard used in Europe specs a 12 ga. bore diameter of 18.2 to 18.9mm (0.7165" to 0.744").

Brenneke lists their12 ga. slugs at 0.73" diameter and they are hard cast. If a 0.73" diameter hard cast slug will squeeze down to 0.7165" as it enters the bore at probably peak pressure then it appears that fit can be pretty tight.

Brenneke slugs have ribs that allow lead to be displaced relatively easily but still, I just ran a similar ACWW slug from a home made mould through a full choke and it was work to pound it through. The ribs on my slug are narrower than Brenneke ribs and fewer of them too so the Brenneke would be even more work to swage down.

Very subjective, yes, but again if the Brenneke can swage down to 0.7165" safely that is informative.

My understanding of the intent of the Brenneke ribs is both to reduce bore friction and to allow the slug to safely pass through a full choke. At the muzzle pressure will be pretty low but velocity, so momentum, very high. That shouldcarry the slug through the choke so I doubt there would be a jump in pressure there but when that same slug has to swage down to 0.7165" at peak pressure near the breach I'd expect to see an increase in pressure.

Has anyone with pressure trace equipment ever tested this?

Longbow

[Smellysniper]

Randy, I agree that the gun must be suspect. It is a Hatsan MPA which is made in Turkey in a very high tech factory.They have a mixed reputation in the UK. Some say they are super guns never missed a beat,others say they are a pile of junk! My guess is that early ones suffered from quality problems. I looked at an early model,a 3 shot shotgun,which wouldn't shoot anything and found that the odd rattling sound was the gas piston which was so loose in the cylinder that it actually slid out if the gun was tipped butt down and slid back when the gun was tipped muzzle down. The gun was originally advertised as having had little use. My opinion as a good amateur gunsmith was that it had never fired o decent shot ---ever! I think they have improved since.
Mine is a pistol gripped 10 shot model.It has an under barrel magazine and is actuated by gas bleeding in to a piston which drives the action back,ejecting the cartridge and reloading the next. It is fitted with a "smart valve piston" .This is supposed to bleed off extra gases of heavy loads to reduce recoil ,or not bleeding gas off the gas in light loads in order to use all the gas to work the action. Hopefully it does so. One thing I may do is to make a simple solid piston to prove to myself that it is not this smart valve which is at fault. In my opinion the gun is very well made.All the internals are nicely machined and engineered to a good standard . My old Remmy 1100 contained a lot of bits that were simply stamped out of sheet material,admittedly properly heat treated but the Hatsan is much better with bits machined out of castings. Much of the trigger group is stamped out but that is the way most autos are made. All round, I think it is good. Added to that it seems to shoot everthing I put through it except my modified shotshell cartridges! I really do not understand why. It shoots the original shotshell which are Hull Superfast .These are reputed to be higher velocity cartridges with 27 grammes of shot at 1500 FPS and are specially designed to work semi autos and the recoil is said to be ,in the advertising blurb as "firm". And they do work very well in the Hatsan. Commercial slug cartridges also work well as do buckshot loads ,In fact everything except my modified slug loads. It is driving me mad! I initially started reloading slugs in the normal way.I did not see any problem .I am a very experienced reloader ,been reloading since 1958! Because I am a pistol cartridge reloader and full bore rifles I only have fast pistol powders or slow rifle powders.I started with Green Dot and Unique and later Red Dot. Always with my hard cast home cast slug. The only load that worked well was a heavy load of Red Dot . Nothing else worked. They went bang and were accurate but never ejected cleanly. I was convinced by my own research and others that I need a slower powder such as Blue Dot or Herco but could not get any. In desperation I started de-shotting the Superfast shotshells and slugging them. They dont work either! they are accurate but ejection is poor. The empties either do not clear the ejection port or ,if they do ,simply fall at my feet,there is no velocity in them at all.Everthing else ejects as they should ,slinging the empties a good few feet away. As I say it is driving me mad.They should work but they simply dont! This is why I am now looking into back pressure improvement. My thought at present ,aided by info. received, is to cast a softer slug ,with a cavity which might swage up, and a couple of thou. over barrel diameter. Also try to improve the crimp tightness . My gun is very length sensitive and any cartridge length less than 55 mm double feeds ,so the standard cartridge even with just the folded mouth crimp removed ,leaving part of the original roll crimp ,will be too short if I increase the depth of the roll crimp to try to increase pressure. Re intating the fold crimp is a pain and takes for ever.
So onwards and hopefully upwards.
Tony

[Smellysniper]

Lightload ,no sadly not . In 1997 a shooter in Scotland who was a fully licensed,legal club shooter ,of obviously unsound mind, killed 13 small children and a Teacher in the town of Dunblane in Scotland . The public outcry was unbelievable and we legal shooters were called perverts ,potential murderers and weirdos. The newspapers took up the campaign as did one or two Dunblane housewives .They all really stitched us up ,we had no chance.The ruling bodies of shooting were all caught wrong footed and were pretty useless . They had always regarded pistol shooters as Cowboys anyway . The result was a complete ban on handguns. I had 9 at the time and they all were handed in . As the Government could not actually steal our possessions we were paid compensation .We managed to also gain compensation for other pistol related stuff such as holsters,ammunition,gunbelts and reloading tools. The resulting cost to the country was huge ,millions of pounds.
A lot was hushed up , there were all sorts of rumours about the shooter and his mental state and how he was even allowed a Firearm Certificate which are not easy to get. He had shot himself after the murders.
With the compensation I bought rifles and shotguns .Fortunately for us pistol shooters ,there are rifles that use pistol ammunition and we were allowed certain types of rifles. The Marlin 1894 lever action rifle was the one to get. It uses 38" Special and .357" magnum rounds .The other gun which was popular was the Ruger 10/22 which of course uses '22 rimfire. Armed with these two rifles we were able to continue shooting the same sort of competitions and plinking as before. A poor substitute but better than nothing. Many people took over the organisation of shooting and the Phoenix was the emblem chosen ,so shooting rose from the flames to a certain extent. Some historically important handguns were designated Heritage Arms and some shooters chose to go that route.These guns,which had to be legally designated "important historically" "such as Lugers ,Webleys etc are kept under lock and key at designated ranges and the owners are allowed access to them for shoots on closed ranges on shoot days. Wow,what fun! They are shooting them"for evaluation and testing" not fun or competition. Although I had a couple of historically important guns I thought the whole scheme was rather like having a bath with your clothes on or eating toffees wrapped ,so I handed my guns in and let them die a death ,and bought Enfield rifles with the money. There is also another avenue open to some. A handgun is a handgun because it is short. If the length is more than 600 mm ,it becomes a rifle. So if the barrel of a handgun is 600 mm long it is a rifle,and can be owned ,reluctantly by Authorities .Because a handgun with a 600mm long barrel is a bit unwieldy,it was allowed an extension on the butt which had to be permanently part of the gun . So as that added length,the barrel could be shortened to 300 mm .Much better!
So was born a LBR A Long Barrelled Pistol. This allowed some shooters to have a pistol again. Personaly ,at the time of their emergence,I thought they were awful ,a travesty of my lovely 1911 and 686 but I am changing my mind a bit nowadays . Getting one is a bit of a mission because armed with a hacksaw you could ,God Forbid ,turn it into real pistol by cutting off the barrel and the bar at the back. You would then go to jail for some time. Gangsters,dont bother with these they seem to get handguns quite easily. The Uk can't keep illegal immigrants out ,how can they keep illegal guns out.People are much bigger and easily seen.
So there we have it. Uk Gun Laws. Oh, we can"t own semi auto rifles either. A legal shooter used a Kalashnikov to kill his Mum and several passers by ,so we lost semi auto rifle too. Oddly enough we can own semi -auto shotguns.But only if they are smooth bore .I f they were rifled or had a rifled choke they become semi -auto rifles.jail time again. Also a shotgun,is licensed as a Section 2 if it has a capacity of 3 shots. Shotguns can be held on a Shotgun Certificate and are much easier to buy and sell and use . If they have a cartridge capacity of more than 3 ,they are designated a Firearm and must be held on a Firearm Certificate .Much harder to get but possible.
The UK Gun Laws are ver stringent . If you know them you can continue to enjoy shooting to a limited degree. One thing which is paramount when you want a gun in the UK is the "Good Reason" requirement . In fairness ,I do not see much of a problem with this. My "Good Reason" is Target Shooting,and that is usually enough. Others have Game Shooting or Pest Control as their good reason. To back this up you need to be able to actually have somewhere to shoot your guns,So Club Membership is required. Yes ,it is a pain sometimes but if it was easy,everybody would do it.
Tony