I think highly of the 44 Special

[Bazoo]

That is a very handsome Blackhawk! The accuracy is great too!!! Nice!

Thanks! I wish I could shoot that well all the time!

[curioushooter]

I too think highly of the 44 Special. Where I really think it shines above all is in a 3" 5-shot revolver and loaded to the high end of standard 44 special power level. This is a good size comparison. Top is a 6.5" S&W 624 (N-Frame). Middle is a Ruger New Model "Flattop" (Small frame) Blackhawk Bisley. These are both 6-shot. And bottom is a Rossi M720, a 5-holer.


The Smith and Ruger can be taken all the way up to 25k PSI Keith loads with no sweat, and such loads are reasonably comfortable in such weighty revolvers. My preference is to slightly back off on the power with the full weight bullet (255-260 grain SWC) about 100 FPS with a faster powder. I easily achieve 1100 FPS with 9 grains of Longshot with a lot less drama and violence than the 17 grain/2400 Keith load and the powder goes nearly twice as far, but seems to do best with heavier bullets. It disappoints around 200 grains.

With the little Rossi I have really three loads, all withing standard pressure limitations, inspired by Glen Fryxell's excellent article: https://www.artfulbullet.com/documen...l_Revisted.pdf I have a clone of the Lyman 429348 (full wadcutter with a narrower forward section that greatly facilitates loading) made by Accurate in aluminum. The bullets are about 185 grains. With 9 grains of Unique this is a smoking load going 1000 FPS+ out of just a 3" revolver. I used this load to stun two big hogs (domestic) and was very unimpressed by the penetration, both going about 4 inches through the skull, destroying the brain, and lodging on the back side of the skull. This makes it actually a great stunning load however as the bullets don't go into the body, works just like a captive bolt gun.

I also like the 200 grain Lee RNFP with a 8 grains of Unique. This is surprisingly more accurate than the wadcutter too. Mine cast up around 208 grains. Gets just over 900 FPS.

But the real surprise is 8 grains of Power Pistol (which it slower, cleaner, meters nicer, and is more dense than Unique) with the full weight (~255 grain) semiwadcutter like a 429244, 429241, or H&G503. It to manages just over 900 FPS--nearly a "skeeter load." In the lighter Rossi this is quite a handful compared to the lighter bullet. I am interested in trying the 429215 cause it sort of splits the difference in weight (around 220 grains). This is the most accurate load of all and closest to shooting point of aim. I have shot many pigs with the skeeter load and it always goes clear through the skull ends up in the neck or lungs.

I really like the Rossi. It is about the size of a K frame and built just like a S&W, and it's a shame S&W never made a 44 special in the K frame. The trigger is meant to be staged and I've found it accurate to shoot this way. Don't even want a hammer spur. It handles snake shot loads well and with more load than any 357 can deliver. And it serves up nearly 45 ACP momentum. It's a great general purpose or truck revolver. Light (26 oz with the rubber pachmayrs) but not toy like. Plenty of power. Can do shake shot. And the little speed strips work well enough. As you can see it's much smaller than the other revolvers which are basically 44 Magnum sized IMO. My thinking is might as well get a magnum, even if you never shoot it at that power level. Tightgroup in 44 magnum can duplicate any heavy 44 special loads. But the bigger revolvers can never be as portable and neat as the Rossi.

[Bowdrie]

it's a shame S&W never made a 44 special in the K frame.

There just isn't enough room between the cylinder pin and the O.D. of the cylinder to fit holes big enough and still have the wall thickness to take much load.
And then the distance between bore axis and the top strap wouldn't allow it either.
However, with the L-frame 696 and the later 69 we have just the room needed.
The same thing is when S&W chambered the .45Colt in the N-frame, the cylinder walls are woefully thin, those guns will not withstand very heavy loads before the cylinder starts to swell under the bolt notches.

[curioushooter]

There just isn't enough room between the cylinder pin and the O.D. of the cylinder to fit holes big enough and still have the wall thickness to take much load.

Diameter of the Rossi is only a few thousands greater than my M19. Same with the frame window. I would think this could be done. The bolt notch thing isn't a concern in the 5-chamber gun. If Rossi did it S&W could. My guess is that with Charter Arms out there S&W didn't see profit. It's a good combination, IMO. I also think 41 Magnum 5-shot could be done in a K frame, which would be nifty. Taurus made a 5-shot 44 special called the model 41, too.

The 696 is a L frame, large enough for 7-shot 357 or 5 shot 44 MAGNUM as in the model 69. L-frames are large, duty sized revolvers, IMO. If autos hadn't been invented, police would probably carry 7-shot 686s with 4-6" barrels.

The Model 25/625s are chambered in 45 ACP and can easily take it's much greater pressures (23,000 PSI) compared to 45 Colt, see Handloader #337. N-frames have larger diameter cylinders than Uberti SAA clones or Flattop blackhawks/new vaqueros, which take these pressures. They do have the notches cut off top dead center of the chamber however.

Even the pre-war N-frames took standard 45 ACP pressures.

[Chill Wills]

So, this brings me to a question I have been wrestling with two of the three 44 Specials I wish to carry in the woods, not so much on the city streets, where I do not live. The difference being, for 300, 400 or 500 pound threats, heavy bullets and lots of penetration is a good thing and I don't care if the bullets exit as there is nothing behind to worry about.

I have both a Smith 696 and the Ruger GP-100 44 Specials. The Ruger may be a gift to my son.
To what level can these two revolvers be loaded to? And for the record, I am not looking for 44 Mag loads. These specials are the revolvers I own and about 15,000psi is what the long time limit is with published data. I saw some good info in another thread just yesterday that offers three different loading levels.

"For those who want to reload the .44 Special, this is a good read."
https://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/...%20Special

[Bowdrie]

I am not looking for 44 Mag loads. These specials are the revolvers I own and about 15,000psi is what the long time limit is with published data.

I too use a 696. You know, for a gun that was not a big seller, and many denigrated as neither "fish-nor-fowl", the 696 has now become a "grail", must-have for S&W collectors and prices have reflected that.
As such I have no interest in loading "low magnum" ammo for it.
A #429421 moving around 850>900 will do anything you need and doesn't strain anything, and the pressures are below 15K with several powders.
The reports of cracked forcing cones have not come from low pressure/heavy bullets, it's been the opposite.
Too many shooters fall victim to the fly-weight bullet at hyper-speed mentality, chasing after more "energy" or a flatter trajectory.
It's not a good trail to follow for the .44 Special and most of the guns chambered for it.

[Chill Wills]

We are thinking about the same. I have a few SWC bullets in the 250 - 265 grain range and I am sorting through what bullet and which powder is best. I will be very happy to settle on an accurate load in the 850 - 925 fps range that stays within or does not produce much over the standard max pressure.

FWIW - the Smith has had the accuracy advantage over the Ruger in all testing. OR - It could be that I just don't shoot the Ruger as well.

[curioushooter]

Chill Wills:

I would say it is unnecessary to load hotter for your purposes. The 696 and GP100 both have pretty thin barrel extensions and this is why I never purchased one; compare a 696 and model 69 (which as a much larger frame hole and thicker barrel extension but are the same L-frame 5-shot platform). I have a 624 (N frame) and Flatop Blackhawk. Both of these have been established to take Ketih loads (the most powerful 44 special loads) with ease (basically 44 Medium loads if you ask me. 250 grain at 1200 FPS is not a whole lot different than 240 grains at 1250 FPS which is what Hornady factory loads run). I have that little Rossi which I never shoot anything beyond standard, and which frankly, is a handful even with standard ammo.

8.0 Grains of Alliant PowerPistol is with a 250 grain cast "Keith" bullet is listed on Alliant's website, and also in Handloader #236 (Aug-Sep 2005). It works with short barrels well with less waste and drama (and is cleaner) and approximately the same velocity as 2400. Years ago (you can search on this site) I did calibrated gel testing in the 357/38 Special concluding that the standard 158-172 grain cast SWC is a penetration MONSTER even at 38+P velocities going through 28" of block. This test proved to me that penetration is more important than expansion. It is only after sufficient penetration is achieved that one needs to start thinking about expansion. 43 caliber bullets are not much smaller than typical expanded 357s to begin with and depending on alloy if you have a big flat meplat you can expect some "mushrooming" if your velocity is over 1000 FPS.

I have not tested this load on gel, perhaps I will today! But if I were faced with the same situation (black bear, 200-500 lbs) animal defense and wanted it in a compact package I would choose a my 44 special Rossi with Lyman 429421 or 429244 or RCBS 44-250-K or H&G 503 or clone of type with 8 grains of PowerPistol for about 900 FPS. This is approximately the "skeeter load" of 7.5 grains of Unique btw, but it does it within standard pressure limits, using a slower powder. If I didn't have one of these bullets I would use a 429215 and if I didn't have that the Lee 200 grain RNFP with the same charge of PowerPistol. Mind OALs. Keith type bullet put a lot of weight out front in a big long nose and so occupied less case space allowing significantly greater charges. Sometimes going to a lighter bullet of a different design isn't necessarily safe. Just be smart! Cast softer of 20:1 or what I call 96-2-2 (96% Pb, 2% Sn, 2% Sb). I love the Rotometals antimony nuggets. You can cast quite soft using the 429215 I've found with that copper diaper. And of course sizing. I like to size my bullets to be the same as throat diameter if possible.

My second choice would be a 45 ACP 1911 with a 230 grain ball type load or preferably a 230-250 grain flat pointed cast bullet. I would put this second despite having 9 rounds (a considerable advantage over 5) on board for two reasons. 1) I have ingrained habits with S&W DA revolvers, Khar K9, a H&K P7, and S&W 3rd Gen pistols (what I did my CCW safety course with)---my carry pieces over the years--and all do not require the deactivation of a safety. A certain amount of presence of mind must remain for me to use a 1911 or Hi-Power correctly. 2) I would load the Rossi such that the first chamber to fire would be loaded with snake shot, the next four with the bear load above. This is how my wife carries her 38 snub (638, which can decock). It is because most of the things that need shooting are little varmints. And to bigger varmints a most unpleasant blast of #6 birdshot is enough to make them go away without mortally wounding them (think black bear which are often scared by cats, flying whiskey bottles, just yelling at them). If they don't, well, then a solid will soon follow. I would carry a speed strip with another 5 in a pocket or some easy place to access. My experience with virtually all animals, particularly predators, is that they require multiple non-survivable shots to go down. Unless shots hit the CNS right on (and sometimes even if they do) they can still do harm simply by thrashing about. Because my wife is on-farm butcher/processor I get a lot of real-world data on deer and domestic pigs. The more I get the more I prefer slightly heavy for caliber soft cast bullets with a large meplat going close to 1000FPS at impact the bigger the caliber the better until it becomes impractically large.

I see that charter arms has a larger 45 Colt revolver now. That I might consider with again a 250 grain cast flat point bullet. But I have never seen one of these or tested any 45 colt loads in short barrels.

[Chill Wills]

Good read. There is a lot in there to chew on.

All my heavy SWC molds cast heaver than stated. I have three versions of the RCBS bullet. The KT, the K and one called the SWC and a Hoch. All SWC and all going 264grs for the Hoch to the RCBS K at 275 in a 96-2-2 alloy.

Most load data list lead at 250 or in some cases 240grs.

I don't have any Alliant PowerPistol. Sounds like a good one to try, or at least try to find. The Herco is very good.

You write of the 44 mag revolvers: "which as a much larger frame hole and thicker barrel extension but are the same L-frame 5-shot platform". I don't know what part of my revolvers are the "barrel extension". Is it the rear of the barrel that houses the forcing cone?

I don't think I need to go overboard with heavy loads of powder and higher than standard pressure to get what I want. And, I understand you are not advocating that.

I have not tested every last combination of powder and lighter bullet but in my testing, the big SWC's have had better accuracy with the Ruger and Smith.

Herco, Unique, Universal, Red Dot, Bulls Eye, HP-38/WW-231 are what is on hand.