Possible double set trigger problem

[fayettefatts]

I recently bought a custom rifle built on a F. Wesson #1 (Steve Earle Products I believe) action with double set triggers. The hammer will not stay cocked unless the rear trigger is set first, then it works as it should. Is this the way this trigger should work, or could there be something broken or out of adjustment? Will it hurt the gun by using it this way? Thank You!

[Sasquatch-1]

I had a similar problem with a front stuffer. There are several videos on YouTube on how to adjust the triggers. I found I had adjust both the set and regular triggers. Took about a half hour to find that sweet spot.

[pietro]

.

If the triggers aren't out of adjustment, there may be an issue with the lock's fly.

With DT's, some can only be fired "set" (mostly for target rifles), or as normal (unset front trigger fires with a harder trigger pull than when set, or more lightly if set)

It won't damage the rifle to fire it set all the time, but some shooters can have issues with un-intended discharges (like accidently shooting something that shouldn't have been shot).

.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Find out what type of set trigger you have, some are single lever, some are double lever. Double lever can usually be adjusted to work set or unset. Single levers fire from set position only. Double lever triggers have a lever forged onto the front and back triggers, single lever have the lever only on one trigger with the other one acting as a latch.

[Rockingkj]

I have an antique ML that only cock if the trigger is set. From taking it apart it appears that was how it is supposed to function. Mine also does not have a half cock. I only use it for target shooting but would be sorta unsafe to wander the woods with a cap on the nipple.

[405grain]

You need to have a competent gunsmith take a look at it. (someone that knows double set trigger mechanisms) Without actually seeing what's going on with your trigger all that people on a website can do is guess. What you describe sounds like something is not right. Before you do anything else contact Steve Earle products and see what they have to say. If you need to consult a gunsmith, black powder muzzleloader smiths would usually be more likely to deal with a double set trigger than the typical gunsmith.

[Sasquatch-1]

If as stated in a previous post and you need to take it to a gunsmith and you happened to be near Chambersburg PA, look up Ft. Chambers Gun Shop. They have a gunsmith who specializes in black powder and should be familiar with double set triggers.

[d4xycrq]

I have CZ Mauser 98 clone with a double set trigger. Bought new while I was stationed in Germany. The rear trigger takes up 98% of the pull, leaving the front trigger to extend the other 2%. I’ve never measured it. Hairy to say the least.

[405grain]

Not always, but usually, a double set trigger on a Mauser 98 will have a kick off lever, while a double set trigger on a single shot will have an arm on the rear trigger striking the sear. Just because it has two triggers doesn't mean that DST's work the same. To muddy the waters even further, a Frank Wesson single shot is a break action (like a single shot shotgun) It has what appears to be two triggers, but that's not the case. The front "trigger" is actually the release that opens the action. The rear trigger is actually the trigger. If the OP's rifle is really a double set trigger action it would look as if it has three triggers. He really needs to have this firearm seen by a competent gunsmith. Also, he may be able to get better answers to his questions from the ASSRA forum because they are more knowledgeable about single shots.

[fayettefatts]

Thanks for all the replies so far. This rifle is built on the Wesson #1 action and if it is a Steve Earle action, he says that perhaps it is an aftermarket modification. I did try adjusting the trigger and if I adjust it lighter, then the set trigger will not even work. I'm thinking this may be a single lever trigger as Jackrabbit1957 describes. The only way to tell for sure is to take the rifle apart. As I am a parts assembler and not a gunsmith, I will not attempt taking a gun this nice apart. If it will not hurt the rifle, I will shoot it as is since it will only be used as a target rifle.

[Rockingkj]

Fine looking rifle! What caliber?

[fayettefatts]

Thank you. 45-70

[2152hq]

I would guess that the rear trigger has no 'Rebound' action to it?
Meaning when it is in the unset/fired position, the rear trigger is forward under heavy spring tension.

If so, that means that the Rear Trigger 9the Set Trigger) is pushing upwards on the arm of the Sear of the lock and holding the Sear out of
engagement from the Tumbler.
Pulling back the Hammer in this condition,,the Hammer can not 'Cock'.
It would be the same thing as if there were a plain, simple single pull trigger in the gun and you were pulling that trigger back with your finger
while cocking the Hammer.
The Hammer wouldn't stay at the cocked position because the trigger would be pushing the Sear out of position.

In a DST, the rear trigger needs quite a heavy spring to propel/pivot it when released from the set position by the Front Trigger.
It needs that speed and it's mass to hit the Sear (or in some mechanisms called the Kicker) to knock the Sear out of engagement from the Tumbler and allow the Hammer to fall.

What also needs to happen is that the Rear Trigger/Set Trigger needs to Rebound after striking the Sear.
This takes the pressure off of the sear and allows the lock to be Cocked again WITHOUT resetting the Set Trigger FIRST.

If the Set Trigger does not have some rebound loose travel in it, it is keeping the Sear in the lock from engaging the tumbler. The lock will not 'cock'.

The fix is to take the DST apart and look at the mechanism carefully.

The spring that powers the Set Trigger needs to be adjusted so that when it snaps down, it stops on a surface or adjustment screw and allows the set trigger to continue on it's path of travel. That way the trigger can then rebound after it does it's job.
Sometimes the tip of the spring can be altered a tiny bit to do this, Sometimes the framework that supports the DST can. A small pin may be there that is the 'stop' and is too short, a longer one may be needed.

If this is a custom and somewhat altered gunsmiths job, there may be a small amt of further adjustment needed to gain that rebounding of the Set Trigger.
It doesn't need a lot. Just enough to take it off of the Sear so the lock can recock.

[indian joe]

I had a similar problem with a front stuffer. There are several videos on YouTube on how to adjust the triggers. I found I had adjust both the set and regular triggers. Took about a half hour to find that sweet spot.

If this is the normal double set trigger found on most front loaders the gun should cock unset and have some free travel in the unset trigger pull - this is CVA style mechanism designed to fire either unset - mine have some trigger free travel and about about a four pound pull unset (quite a decent trrigger for a cheap gun)
or set
when its set - no free travel at all - touch it = kaboom

If it wont cock unset then the trigger plate is bedded a little too deep so its too close to the sear lever arm
to fix needs clearance - adjustment sometimes will do it but that messes with the function of the set trigger

1) bend the sear arm away a little
2) file/ grind a little off the blade of the unset trigger till it doesnt lean on the sear bar anymore
3) a couple of shims/ washers under the trigger plate screws (proly the best / easiest)

I have one that wont cock till its set - never want to shoot it unset - aint broke (yet) dont need fixin - but one day - extra heavy hand putting the gun back together -wood shrinks a little - change the set of the trigger a little - if it wont cock properly and safely when its set = then we got a problem, a bit of a bump or a wriggle after the cap is on and .....kaboom

[indian joe]

I would guess that the rear trigger has no 'Rebound' action to it?
Meaning when it is in the unset/fired position, the rear trigger is forward under heavy spring tension.

If so, that means that the Rear Trigger 9the Set Trigger) is pushing upwards on the arm of the Sear of the lock and holding the Sear out of
engagement from the Tumbler.
Pulling back the Hammer in this condition,,the Hammer can not 'Cock'.
It would be the same thing as if there were a plain, simple single pull trigger in the gun and you were pulling that trigger back with your finger
while cocking the Hammer.
The Hammer wouldn't stay at the cocked position because the trigger would be pushing the Sear out of position.

In a DST, the rear trigger needs quite a heavy spring to propel/pivot it when released from the set position by the Front Trigger.
It needs that speed and it's mass to hit the Sear (or in some mechanisms called the Kicker) to knock the Sear out of engagement from the Tumbler and allow the Hammer to fall.

What also needs to happen is that the Rear Trigger/Set Trigger needs to Rebound after striking the Sear.
This takes the pressure off of the sear and allows the lock to be Cocked again WITHOUT resetting the Set Trigger FIRST.

If the Set Trigger does not have some rebound loose travel in it, it is keeping the Sear in the lock from engaging the tumbler. The lock will not 'cock'.

The fix is to take the DST apart and look at the mechanism carefully.

The spring that powers the Set Trigger needs to be adjusted so that when it snaps down, it stops on a surface or adjustment screw and allows the set trigger to continue on it's path of travel. That way the trigger can then rebound after it does it's job.
Sometimes the tip of the spring can be altered a tiny bit to do this, Sometimes the framework that supports the DST can. A small pin may be there that is the 'stop' and is too short, a longer one may be needed.

If this is a custom and somewhat altered gunsmiths job, there may be a small amt of further adjustment needed to gain that rebounding of the Set Trigger.
It doesn't need a lot. Just enough to take it off of the Sear so the lock can recock.

just checking my safe before I wrote more
I have two front loaders that are proly what you are describing - double triggers but they dont fire unset at all - cheap Belgian triggers on a Brass plate - they function fine but there is no blade on the front trigger to fire it unset - so your info would be likely correct there and my "fix" not

What I was describing in my other post was the typical CVA trigger mechanism which does have an upright blade on the front trigger so it will fire unset as well as set - that was where the lack of clearance comes into play between that upright blade and the sear bar and my "fix(es)" more appropriate

[2152hq]

DST that only fire from the SET position are called Single Stage DST.
Not uncommon. Most of the true Southern Mountain/Tennessee style M/L rifles used them.

Many Target rifles are/were made up with such a trigger as there was no need for that quick, snap shot in true Target shooting using an Unset Trigger.

If the DST can be fired both from the Set and the Unset positions, it's called a 2 Stage or Double Stage DST. The most commonly found both on
M/L rifles made today and on sporting CF rifles.
The rebound spring tension on the front trigger on these is very light. Just enough to push the front trigger back to engage the Set Trigger in that mode. Plus give the front trigger some spring tension to take up any extra motion in the unset position pushing it forward, not back.
The front trigger if it can be used to fire the gun Unset will never be sitting with it's blade down on the sear/kicker under spring tension. Instead it will be pushed forward by that light spring tension and usually have a long trigger pull and poor leverage to fire the rifle Unset.
After using the front trigger to fire the rifle, it's rebound spring once again returns the front trigger to the extreme forward position. Taking it's arm off of the sear so the lock can be recocked again.
If the trigger is not inletted properly, wood in the way perhaps and the trigger arm is stuck in the rear position it could hold the sear arm out of engagement and cause the same condition where the lock will not able to be cocked.
Just like holding the trigger back with your finger...

If in either of these styles of DST, the particular trigger that kicks the sear of the lock out of engagement then does not positively rebound after that contact with the Sear ,,, recocking the lock will not be possible.
The Sear will be held out of engagement from the tumbler by that DST trigger (which ever one it happens to be) in that particular set up.
It's as simple as that.

[indian joe]

DST that only fire from the SET position are called Single Stage DST.
Not uncommon. Most of the true Southern Mountain/Tennessee style M/L rifles used them.

Many Target rifles are/were made up with such a trigger as there was no need for that quick, snap shot in true Target shooting using an Unset Trigger.

If the DST can be fired both from the Set and the Unset positions, it's called a 2 Stage or Double Stage DST. The most commonly found both on
M/L rifles made today and on sporting CF rifles.
The rebound spring tension on the front trigger on these is very light. Just enough to push the front trigger back to engage the Set Trigger in that mode. Plus give the front trigger some spring tension to take up any extra motion in the unset position pushing it forward, not back.
The front trigger if it can be used to fire the gun Unset will never be sitting with it's blade down on the sear/kicker under spring tension. Instead it will be pushed forward by that light spring tension and usually have a long trigger pull and poor leverage to fire the rifle Unset.
After using the front trigger to fire the rifle, it's rebound spring once again returns the front trigger to the extreme forward position. Taking it's arm off of the sear so the lock can be recocked again.
If the trigger is not inletted properly, wood in the way perhaps and the trigger arm is stuck in the rear position it could hold the sear arm out of engagement and cause the same condition where the lock will not able to be cocked.
Just like holding the trigger back with your finger...

If in either of these styles of DST, the particular trigger that kicks the sear of the lock out of engagement then does not positively rebound after that contact with the Sear ,,, recocking the lock will not be possible.
The Sear will be held out of engagement from the tumbler by that DST trigger (which ever one it happens to be) in that particular set up.
It's as simple as that.

so ....... are we arguing about something??????

[2152hq]

Not that I know about.
Just info and conversation back and forth. That's what a forum is supposed to be about. Or at least I always thought it was.

Never mind then...

[indian joe]

Not that I know about.
Just info and conversation back and forth. That's what a forum is supposed to be about. Or at least I always thought it was.

Never mind then...

thats ok ...looked to me like we using different lingo to say pretty much the same thing --I dont have the text book definitions just describe what I see in plain terms - experience has taught me the most common cause of the initial problem (as I see it on the line at shoots) is those two stage double set triggers put together not quite right - inlet too deep usually - or the sear bar on the lock needs bent a little - this has the trigger leaning on the sear bar and prevents proper cocking - sometimes adjusting the screw that controls depth of adjustment of the set will get it working - but this not always satisfactory.
If these two stage ones are set up well - fore and aft as well as vertical - you can get a quite respectable unset letoff - I have two - CVA mechanisms with a little free travel and a clean letoff about 4 pounds on the unset trigger and nice down to touch it = kaboom when set. Surprisingly good for stuff bought at the low end of the market. Have one rifle with a Davis single set trigger - its a little nicer letoff but not much in it really.