Sometimes when you sell a jet fighter to the military you make more money on the spare parts than you did on the sale of the jet. At 80.000 psi I can't see these new rifles having a long barrel life. The wear and tear on the gas system is also going to be an issue. My guess is that SIG is going to make quite a profit on these guns as their operating pressure will likely shorten the lifespan of sever critical components, and the spare parts market will be considerable.
wonder how many here telling us what the military needs have put on the uniform. heck if you asked my when i was 19 and full of piss and vinegar what id want to carry into battle id probably tell you to design a bar with 5o round drums. in the woods or jungle make it a pump gun with 00! someone earlier hit on this. men, well trained men are the real weapon. not some fancy smancy new caliber. military has gone so woke that an equal number of jar heads that landed on the beaches of Normandy with Springfield bolts would eat alive the same number of video game and phone tapping NEW military soldier with some 6mm fstrdenu.
Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better
There was a story about Stoner and the M16. When he first presented his ideas he was given the heave and told to come back with something more reliable. He returned and put a walnut case on the general's desk. A chromed steel bar was in the box. Supposedly he said that even that bar could not meet the reliability requirements given to him.
And, yes, mcnamara is a name that will be linked to the deaths of hundreds of thousands for his mismanagement of the military and foreign policy. How he survived through so many administrations is mind boggling.
For those that want more detail on the new 6.8x51 cartridge.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...277_Fury-round
While I was never the pointy end of the spear, I did serve 32 years with time spent in 4 different combat zone on three different continents. I was always inside the wire providing aircraft maintenance. As a national level rifle competitor, state level military marksmanship team coach and armorer and having experience with trapdoor Springfields, Krags, 1903's, 1917's, M1's, M-14's and most of the M-16 variants from the original 601 14 twist thru the M-4 carbine if I was going into combat as the pointy end of the spear, I would want to be carrying the new XM-7 weapons system.
The base XM-7 rifle is only 2 pound heavier than an M4.
More details on the M157 Fire Control optics system.
https://www.guns.com/news/2023/03/23...eapons-program
LC ammo contract
https://www.guns.com/news/2023/02/09...-to-winchester
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-17-2023 at 06:01 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
A rifle that weighs 30% more has some drawbacks. I am old and weaker and got a lighter hunting rifle. It made a difference. I guess for young warriors a bit more weight will not matter. A 135 woman might not agree but women don’t get combat duty….right?
Don Verna
The M1 Carbine and the M1 Garand highlighted that issue during WWII and Korea. Audie Murphy loved the M1 Carbine. Others not so much.Originally Posted by dverna
https://scatteredshots.com/2022/09/0...ys-m1-carbine/
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
You made my point. A smaller soldier might prefer a smaller lighter weapon with less recoil.
Given a choice, I bet Murphy would have traded a kidney for an M4 and left a Garrand in a ditch. Same wrt to this new Sig.
I am reminded when a few years back the .40 S&W was “the” LEO caliber until they found people shot the 9mm better.
Don Verna
Per Murphy's own words he hated the Garand. His love for the Carbine was not shared by most that had a choice.
Of the WWII and Korean Combat Vets I personally know none kept the M1/M2 carbines any longer that when the first battlefield pickup became available. One was an advanced spotter that parachuted into Normandy 7 days before the invasion. He was unimpressed with the M2 Carbine. He had the gas system shot off his Garand's twice and one direct hit to the receiver. All replaced with battlefield pickups. He was 5' 5" but based on his combat abilities he became the BAR man. Again a battlefield pickup. His right shoulder developed a large, hardened mass that had to be removed after the war. It was believed to be caused by the amount of rounds he fired in combat. He did comment to his son that he killed over a hundred with the BAR in single battle. He despised the M1 carbine.
Another glided into France two or three weeks after the invasion. He started with a carbine. That only lasted a couple of days. His last shots fired in combat was with his Garand in Berlin at Russians. They shot each other for a while until they figured out they were allies. He didn't much care for the 30 carbine either.
As to what Murphy would prefer, we will never know???? We know he loved the carbine but that was before the day of body armor. Other than the war on terrorism future conflicts will be against troops with body armor.
At 6' 4" my "lightweight" Kevlar body armor and helmet weighed over 27 pounds. We tested some M855 Green Tip against a damaged vest. The M855 did not penetrate it.
Body armor is why the Army wants/needs this weapons system and that is also why it's likely the end of the line for the military adopting cartridges that will fit in the AR15/M-16/M-4 systems.
Today's planning is for the battlefield of the future that includes combat against actual militaries with body armor.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-18-2023 at 01:43 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
2lbs = 250 rounds of ammo. or a back up side arm or an extra canteen of water. wonder what could be bought for the price of replacing those perfectly good ars. most of this bs is pushed by politians who get kickbacks, or their state will benefit from it. today we need a stronger navy and air force to compete with russia and china. handing out new rifles isnt going to change the outcome of a battle let alone a war. we need to start building back our military where it counts the most. we sure dont need to throw it away on senate committees picking out new rifles.
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 09-18-2023 at 05:54 AM.
Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better
Just imagine how many extra rounds the troops could carry if they installed the 22 LR conversion units in their M-4's???????? They could save a lot of money also.
https://thegunzone.com/277-sig-fury-6-8x51mm/
The Problem
Fast forward to today. The War on Terror has wound down and is no longer the primary focus of the US military. The military is now focused on fighting what they call “near-peer” armies. Essentially, China and Russia.
In the past, none of the enemies engaged with 5.56 NATO were highly industrialized nations whose troops were equipped with body armor. That would change if we faced off with the other ‘Big Boys.’ Consequently, the Army decided it needed a round that could penetrate body armor at 500 meters. Something 5.56 NATO cannot and was never designed to do.
The Solution
The Army conducted the Small Arms Ammunition Configuration Study to address the problem in 2017. The study is classified, but we know it determined that the 5.56 NATO would never be able to do the job. The Army wanted a new round and a new rifle to shoot it, and it wanted the round to be 6.8mm.
The next step for the Army was to conduct the Next Generation Squad Weapon Program (NGSW) in 2018. Multiple manufacturers entered the competition. Sig won. The Army would have its new 6.8X51mm cartridge and two new guns to shoot it................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................All other considerations aside, the XM5 is a CQB rifle that is also very effective at long range. It takes soldiers and Marines back to the days when troops carried a rifle that was lethal at very long ranges. Now that rifle will shoot a round that will punch through rigid body armor.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........
Is this Goodbye to the M4?
It’s unlikely that the M4 will be going anywhere in either the military or civilian world. The Army has hundreds of thousands of M4s and SAWs in the inventory and millions of rounds of 5.56 NATO on hand. The XM5 is expensive to produce, and the ammunition is even more so when compared to 5.56 NATO. Sig has a $20M contract to produce ammunition and spare parts. That’s not going to produce a lot of either.
The Army has already stated that the only units that will be getting the XM5 and XM250 are close-combat and SOCOM units. The Marines also have the option of issuing it to selected combat units if they so desire.
The Army also looked at updating the 7.62x51 AP to defeat body armor. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...icker-produce/
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-18-2023 at 06:45 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
6.8 x 51 seems a nice try , given that it already existed something called 7-08, or I'm wrong ?_
about 22lr, during the late fights in ex-Yugo, Zastava fielded some close-combat full auto smg in 22lr, 50rd, with really interesting reports, at the receiving end_
just saying...
Last edited by wilecoyote; 09-18-2023 at 08:19 AM.
never stop dreaming_ Freddy Krueger
The AR-15 and its 223 cartridge is an assault rifle system design. The military simply has tried to make a jeep into a heavy tank. It is a silly exercise in futility.
The Armalite (first ARs) system has the AR-10 for a "battle rifle" and the 308 cartridge is capable of handling the "battle rifle" roles. Gives the logistics a break and gives the ground pounders a real rifle. Wiliest the close up folks still get a light but effective short range rifle.
“There is a remedy for all things, save death.“
Cervantes
“Never give up, never quit.”
Robert Rogers
Roger’s Rangers
There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Will Rogers
US: 6.8 Furry, the be all end all.
Russia: Okay Ivan, design new armor. Let's bankrupt them.
Last edited by deces; 09-18-2023 at 09:56 AM.
These men and their hypnotized followers call this a new order. It is not new. It is not order.
Good video.
I like that he brought up the .308. I am no expert in military applications and wonder what this new 6.8x51 does than a .308 cannot do.
The difference in recoil was interesting.
M-Tecs makes a point about body armor that raises questions. If it takes 27 lbs of body armor to defeat a 5.56 any guess as to how much will be needed for the 6.8x51? Will the enemy decide body armor is not worth wearing if you need, say, 40/50 lbs of armor to protect from this new offering? If that happens, what are the consequences?
Don Verna
The 277 Fury / 6.8x51 is in my understanding a Hybrid rifle case (steel base, brass body) run at 80 Kpsi, with hard chrome bore (or something similar: Inconel, whatever) that resists very high temperature erosion (pressure up, temperature up) to get performance exceeding a 270 Weatherby (think wildcat regions, like 270 STW, or Lazzeroni) out of a 308 sized case.
More speed, smaller diameter tends to make for better AP performance.
I guess the 5.56 size w/ a steel head getting something more like 227 Clarke performance was infeasible or still didn't fill the bill.
Edit: BTW -- steel base brass body, think O'Connor rifle company cases of 30-ish years ago, but done better from Sig.
The presenter provided a good overview; but with the bias of a "Magazine Dump" mentality. The "Well Aimed Shot" and "One Shot - One Kill" alternative is ignored. (Yes; there are circumstances where Massed Fire to fix a target in place or keep their heads down while maneuvering to establish a better position to destroy the objective is valid - but I have always been cautious of those who make their point with Bang-Bang-Bang-Bang rapidly until the magazine is extinguished mentality.
Note that the cartridge is operating over 60K PSI according to the report - top maximum for todays reloader. The steel base and brass body will be problematic for both the military, sport community, and reloaders.
I note his single bench mark comparison - that being muzzle velocity and Foot Pounds of energy at the muzzle. No data provided but seems that a 500 yard and 1000/1200 yard comparison would be far more enlightening since he acknowledges that the goal of the 277 Fury round will be above the 300 yard range distance.
I am wondering just exactly the benefit of the .277 Fury round is compared to the 6.5mm Blowmore (Creedmore) or the 6mm Bloweven More (6mm Creedmore). Both have achieved a degree of popularity; but long term "Stick-To-It" Popularity will be interesting over the next few decades. Will the 277 Fury even rise to that level?
Will watch to see what - if any - popularity it achieves. Were it not for the unlimited pockets of the Spec-Ops community we would not have seen the 300 Norma, 338 Lapua come into play (Although I think the units sold are less than the Magazine Hype). Same goes for the 300PRC.
Many of these "New Rounds" will not do anything greater than the old rounds. My 300 WinMAg gives me a top of the ladder from the 5.56 to 7.62 to 30-06. If I need a taller ladder; then I break out the AR-50 in 50BMG. Do we (US Military or USofA Sport Shooters) need this new round. I think not; but it will feed the Gun Magazines, Trade Shows, and the shelves of Sporting Goods Rifle Racks as the Newest and Greatest; often sold on the limited data provided (i.e. comparing muzzle velocities and energies instead of across the Range comparisons).
Just my 2 Bits worth.
Written as I am waiting on the Pressure cooker to finish a batch of Canned Jars of Carrots. Wishing I was at the Range this morning; but next week or two will be taken up with freezing and canning the harvest from the garden.
Mustang
"In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.
Or 30 years in the future....
These men and their hypnotized followers call this a new order. It is not new. It is not order.
When I saw this Sig 277 Fury a couple years ago, I did wonder about it's practical sporting use.
OK, so it puts a 270 STW performance in a short action.
Me, I often think the short action thing is hype for gun rag writers. I mean, really, a cartridge that is supposed to shine at 700+ yards is in need of a short action?
I am not seeing the need for quicker bolt throw in a precision long range cartridge, where for hunting the spoken of 'rate of fire' and 'short stroke' advantage are touted for short actions.
I mean, these are purposeful long range shots for a sportsman, even if I did see a buddy work the bolt on his 25-06 and let the second loose on the antelope herd before the first brass hit the ground. 2 Shots 2 antelope, very very quickly. Only time I ever was near something like that in the hunting fields w/ a bolt gun.
I have my doubts about current canister powders at 80 Kpsi working pressure, rather than common 60 Kpsi as well.
Commonly the burning rate goes up as the pressure does, and things get quirky. This is an operating pressure outside what I think our current canister powders were designed for. Curious if it takes new powder technologies.
I would also like to see a barrel wear comparison with this at 80 Kpsi and the special barrels vs something of equivalent performance at 60-63 Kpsi and current stainless.
I have a 7 RUM that gives me 3300 fps on a 162gr w/ 93.6 gr Retumbo (pretty equivalent performance), and the barrel seems OK after a few hundred rounds. Does a sportsman commonly use it more than that in a lifetime? It is a specialized rig. I am not using it on deer at 40 yds.
It doesn't make much sense to me to turn it into a 'handles easy, use it near or far' hunting round either, as bullet terminal performance for game would likely be hard to achieve in the 50-100 Plus 900-1000 yd dual use scenario. There are cartridges that can generate these speeds today w/ similar bullet weight & speed, but if you shoot something close with a bullet that will perform 'way out there', then you have a bloody mess to deal with.
I think the military has special needs, and thus solutions that sportsmen don't need. So, my guess is that this may end up being somewhat of a special deal w/ limited use, or make reloaders look old, coggery, and fuddy duddy-ish if they avoid it.
i wonder what happens in a fire fight when you have to lay down suppressing fire. id that that with those kinds of pressures you could light a cigerette of the barrel after even a spirited 25 rounds fired semi auto. full auto for a couple mag dumps and youd best be carrying an extra barrelNote that the cartridge is operating over 60K PSI according to the report - top maximum for todays reloader. The steel base and brass body will be problematic for both the military, sport community, and reloaders.
Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better
uncle detested them. told him proudly when i was 14 that i bought one for my first deer rifle. he looked at me with a scowl and said it aint a fitting rabbit gun. he was a staff sergeant in ww2. i forget the battle now but he said they were pinned down by a jap sniper in a tree. he said he took his mi carbine and tried to sneak around behind and find him. he did and shot him 4 times. the sniper then shot him in the leg. thankfully a flesh wound. he got out of there and back to his guys and the sniper was still shooting and by then 2 of his men were dead and himself and 2 others were wounded. he grabbed a Garand and took back off into the jungle. snuck up on the guy and shot him in the guts and he tumbled out of the tree dead he said two of his carbine shots were in the legs and he would have expected them to stop someone but the other 2 were in the chest and if they would have come from a real rifle would have saved the life of one of his men. he said he carried a Garand the rest of the war. he was shot twice by the germans and once by the japs and was just as in love with toyotas and volkswagons as he was the m1 carbine. he fought in korea too by then a master sergeant . said when he got there they offered him another m1 carbine and he laughed and said nope ill keeps this one. which was a 14 and in his opinion the best battle rifle ever made
Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better
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